A question for creationists

[URAVIP2ME]

What about the Star Wars or Star Trek novels? They are written by many different people and yet they tie in together.

Like those Books, the Bible also has a theme that ties together.

Can you post the corresponding verses in chapter one of Star Wars or Star Trek?

 

[outhouse]

If the violent people of Noah's day would have killed off Noah and his family there would have been no one righteous on earth to fulfill the first prophecy of Genesis 3v15 that there would be a promised 'seed' to come.

Wasn't Adam in a perfect environment ?
How many tress are on earth ?_________
Out of all the trees on earth God had one tree that by saying don't eat was like putting up a no trespassing sign.

God by giving Adam the choice, creating Adam as a free moral agent, meant that Adam was Not a robot or automaton, but had free will to obey or not.

do you really believe in the flood and that adam was the first man created 6000 years ago?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

But does he want us to do it better? Did Jesus not say this? “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.
So once again I ask , are we cherry picking the thing or looking at the whole story, it makes a difference.

I am looking at the whole story, and the conclusion isn't what you'd like, I'm afraid.

 

[riley2112]

If the violent people of Noah's day would have killed off Noah and his family there would have been no one righteous on earth to fulfill the first prophecy of Genesis 3v15 that there would be a promised 'seed' to come.

Wasn't Adam in a perfect environment ?
How many tress are on earth ?_________
Out of all the trees on earth God had one tree that by saying don't eat was like putting up a no trespassing sign.

God by giving Adam the choice, creating Adam as a free moral agent, meant that Adam was Not a robot or automaton, but had free will to obey or not.

agreed, But that is kinda my point. If I leave my 3 year old child in a room with his 2 year old sister and a plate full of cookies and a plate full of carrots some potatoes and a pot roast, then tell him not to eat the cookies, I leave the room , should I be surprised when I come back and see some cookies gone.
I knew when I let the room what was going to happen. so all I did was set the stage so I could punish them. Is that not what God has done to man kind?

 

[riley2112]

I am looking at the whole story, and the conclusion isn't what you'd like, I'm afraid.

What about the whole story is it that you are assuming that I may not like?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

What about the whole story is it that you are assuming that I may not like?

What I am concluding based on your own words, is that your opinion is that my own statements are not correct. Is this, or is it not, the case?

Deductively, if you agreed with me you would not have asked me to doubt my own conclusion, would you? Instead, you ask "But does he want us to do it better", which implies that my statement that we do, indeed, do it better than He, is somehow not sound, and your question will lead us to discover why it is not sound.

Actually, in a way, your question also comes across as the beginning of a bit of diversion of subject; in a sense you are asking does God want us to accomplish a love which he, himself, does not 'live up to'. Which is not precisely what the subject at hand really is.

The subject at hand is, is human love actually superior to the kind of love God shows to us? And, thusfar, the answer is demonstrably "yes, it is superior". As an aside the subject also jabs a bit at God for being a hypocrite about the love he requires of us, but does not follow himself.

 

[riley2112]

What I am concluding based on your own words, is that your opinion is that my own statements are not correct. Is this, or is it not, the case?

Deductively, if you agreed with me you would not have asked me to doubt my own conclusion, would you? Instead, you ask "But does he want us to do it better", which implies that my statement that we do, indeed, do it better than He, is somehow not sound, and your question will lead us to discover why it is not sound.

Actually, in a way, your question also comes across as the beginning of a bit of diversion of subject; in a sense you are asking does God want us to accomplish a love which he, himself, does not 'live up to'. Which is not precisely what the subject at hand really is.

The subject at hand is, is human love actually superior to the kind of love God shows to us? And, thusfar, the answer is demonstrably "yes, it is superior". As an aside the subject also jabs a bit at God for being a hypocrite about the love he requires of us, but does not follow himself.

I just reread the post and yes I can see where it would seem that I disagree with you. I am not completely disagreeing with you at this time. I was just asking for more evidence for your conclusion. If you were to take the whole book into the equation you may see that Jesus knows that we can not love greater than he. It's the "Bible believing" fundamentalists who turned Jesus into a petty monster with their bizarre theology, not me. Today conservative Christians seem to despise prostitutes, homosexuals, and anyone else who doesn't meet their "high moral standards," while their self-righteousness makes the rest of us gnash our teeth. But Jesus clearly said that love and compassion were the real moral standards.So by what thoughts do you believe that humans love greater that Jesus.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I just reread the post and yes I can see where it would seem that I disagree with you. I am not completely disagreeing with you at this time. I was just asking for more evidence for your conclusion. If you were to take the whole book into the equation you may see that Jesus knows that we can not love greater than he. It's the "Bible believing" fundamentalists who turned Jesus into a petty monster with their bizarre theology, not me. Today conservative Christians seem to despise prostitutes, homosexuals, and anyone else who doesn't meet their "high moral standards," while their self-righteousness makes the rest of us gnash our teeth. But Jesus clearly said that love and compassion were the real moral standards.So by what thoughts do you believe that humans love greater that Jesus.

Well, before I continue I would need you to be clear, based on your final question: are we saying that Jesus = God in this? Because my statements directly implicate God, and I do not place Jesus by name in there.

 

[riley2112]

Well, before I continue I would need you to be clear, based on your final question: are we saying that Jesus = God in this? Because my statements directly implicate God, and I do not place Jesus by name in there.

If we are using the Bible, as in the O.T. then we would not have to place Jesus in the discussion. However if we were to engage any verses from the N.T. then it would imply that we would take the Bible for what it says, and it does say that Jesus is God.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

If we are using the Bible, as in the O.T. then we would not have to place Jesus in the discussion. However if we were to engage any verses from the N.T. then it would imply that we would take the Bible for what it says, and it does say that Jesus is God.

All right, well I don't know exactly where the conversation will go so I can't commit to either/or, so I guess I have to include both to be safe; but Jesus being the same as God makes a number of statements even more contradictory...

Taking it though as you state, then, Jesus expressing the love a human should exhibit, still shows much of what I have already said or responded to, that that which is demanded of us to love, is not returned to us by God. Why are our plans discarded for his? Why is our suffering more important that our own relief, since it appears God's plan for us to suffer? Why is such a vile plan more important than the protection of his loved ones' well being above all other things? God cannot answer these questions in any moral way.

I would be interested in seeing the specific quote from Jesus, though, where he realizes/admits we are given some impossible standard; I can't call one to mind myself atm. However, that statement notwithstanding I honestly believe we are capable of an incredibly high selfless degree of love. At least, in my own environment, I am aware of it.

[added] In fact, contemplating on Jesus and God being exactly the same entity, I would admit that while he was corporeal God certainly showed a more humane degree of love. As Jesus was I really cannot fault the way, in micro, in which he loved those immediately around him. Which I am fine admitting, honestly . Perhaps by experiencing humans right in front of him, with all their miseries and fears and hopes felt directly, God experienced something that did, and should [frankly], humble him. Existence as a creature within the creation he performed really isn't any kind of happy cake party. He got to see his own chosen people downcast, impoverished, frightened and often hopeless. The pure misery of death of loved ones. And finally he had it up close and personal. So he pared down the harsh Decalogue a bit, and explained that at its heart it was all about love. 'Listen, I was really p.o.'d back then, but don't despair; let's put the commands aside and just concentrate on doing unto others as you would have done to you, and love each other without limit, whenever you can.'

But, then, I am not discussing the rest just yet

 

[riley2112]

Taking it though as you state, then, Jesus expressing the love a human should exhibit, still shows much of what I have already said or responded to, that that which is demanded of us to love, is not returned to us by God

Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! (Isaiah 49:15) This verse compares the love of God to the love of a human mother. Would any compassionate mother torture her child for a second, much less all eternity? Although this is not saying that He loves greater than we do, it does tend to show that he loves as great.
.

Why are our plans discarded for his? Why is our suffering more important that our own relief, since it appears God's plan for us to suffer? Why is such a vile plan more important than the protection of his loved ones' well being above all other things? God cannot answer these questions in any moral way.

If no Christian achieves perfection in this life, how can any of them enter a perfect heaven unless God perfects their natures? I know many Christians who would make heaven just like earth if they entered heaven as they are today. I'm sure you do too. Is that the reason we are here dealing with the things we must deal with? I don't know.

I would be interested in seeing the specific quote from Jesus, though, where he realizes/admits we are given some impossible standard; I can't call one to mind myself

I will try and put some together. I am not what you would call, well , sure about what God whats. I am just searching

However, that statement notwithstanding I honestly believe we are capable of an incredibly high selfless degree of love. At least, in my own environment, I am aware of it.

I do agree with you on that. Every time I look at my children or stare into the eyes of my wife, I find it hard to believe any love could be stronger than what I feel for them.

[added] In fact, contemplating on Jesus and God being exactly the same entity, I would admit that while he was corporeal God certainly showed a more humane degree of love. As Jesus was I really cannot fault the way, in micro, in which he loved those immediately around him. Which I am fine admitting, honestly . Perhaps by experiencing humans right in front of him, with all their miseries and fears and hopes felt directly, God experienced something that did, and should [frankly], humble him. Existence as a creature within the creation he performed really isn't any kind of happy cake party. He got to see his own chosen people downcast, impoverished, frightened and often hopeless. The pure misery of death of loved ones. And finally he had it up close and personal. So he pared down the harsh Decalogue a bit, and explained that at its heart it was all about love. 'Listen, I was really p.o.'d back then, but don't despair; let's put the commands aside and just concentrate on doing unto others as you would have done to you, and love each other without limit, whenever you can.'

But, then, I am not discussing the rest just yet

you really don't know how much that just helped me. But thank you

 

[riley2112]

Got to get to bed, had no idea what time it was.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! (Isaiah 49:15) This verse compares the love of God to the love of a human mother. Would any compassionate mother torture her child for a second, much less all eternity? Although this is not saying that He loves greater than we do, it does tend to show that he loves as great.

.Well, I agree with your sentiment here; the issue I have is, God does, in fact, at least threaten torture of said own infant. The mother's compassion in this example, isn't a practical mirror of God's. I do not see how his love is as great, when the example here is not what He emulates.


Quote:
Why are our plans discarded for his? Why is our suffering more important that our own relief, since it appears God's plan for us to suffer? Why is such a vile plan more important than the protection of his loved ones' well being above all other things? God cannot answer these questions in any moral way.

If no Christian achieves perfection in this life, how can any of them enter a perfect heaven unless God perfects their natures? I know many Christians who would make heaven just like earth if they entered heaven as they are today. I'm sure you do too. Is that the reason we are here dealing with the things we must deal with? I don't know.

Indeed; so, if humans cannot achieve such perfection, how is it just that such a thing is expected of us, and that so much of value to us hinges on it?

I will try and put some together. I am not what you would call, well , sure about what God whats. I am just searching

There's no rush, so off to bed with you. The good thing about forum conversations is that they stay fresh for weeks

 

[camanintx]

Please post examples of those countless corresponding verses that you mention.

Did Holmes or Potter have 40 different writers to compare with ?

Over a hundred different people have written stories about Sherlock Holmes, any of which you will find as consistent and corresponding as the Bible is about Jesus. Are you going to deny this as evidence that Sherlock Holmes was a real person?

 

[camanintx]

What about the Star Wars or Star Trek novels? They are written by many different people and yet they tie in together.

:clap

 

[camanintx]

Like those Books, the Bible also has a theme that ties together.

Can you post the corresponding verses in chapter one of Star Wars or Star Trek?

How does the ability to quote corresponding verses indicate the existence of a character in a given work?

 

[Iti oj]

Many stories correspond to things outside of the bible like giglemesh or I the egypt sun god or well many other things considered myth

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Many stories correspond to things outside of the bible like giglemesh or I the egypt sun god or well many other things considered myth

Where are the corresponding or parallel reference verses in the stories ?

The Scriptures teach what is non-Scriptural is religious myth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

How does the ability to quote corresponding verses indicate the existence of a character in a given work?

Not just the existence of a character in Scripture, but the span of centuries of time that the 40 plus Bible writers wrote.
Most did not even live at the same time frame yet they harmonize with each other.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Over a hundred different people have written stories about Sherlock Holmes, any of which you will find as consistent and corresponding as the Bible is about Jesus. Are you going to deny this as evidence that Sherlock Holmes was a real person?

Yes, hundreds of different people writing their own story or research in their own individual books. Not as one religious book. Not as Bible canon or Holmes canon.