A Question for fellow Christians.

[sandandfoam]

"God does not exist. He is being itself beyond essence and existence. Therefore to argue that God exists is to deny him."

"Thus the question of the existence of God can neither be asked nor answered. If asked, it is a question about that which by it's very nature is above existence, and therefore the answer - whether negative or affirmative - implicitly denies the nature of God. It is as atheistic to affirm the existence of God as it is to deny it. God is being itself, not a being." - Systematic Theology, Volume I.

Though it's important to keep in mind I think that "God is being itself, not a being" is also just a metaphor.

Thanks, I must trot off and make the fires and stuff.
I knew my brain would end up hurting before I shut the computer!.
Thanks for the brain food. Cheers.

 

[tomspug]

I think we are both in the same ballpark. :yes: You make a fine Buddhist, StephenW.

I don't know about "I am" being an attribute of "God" though any more than any other attribute we project onto "God." This is what the theologian Paul Tillich was getting at, I think, when he wrote about "God" as the "ground of being." Giving "God" attributes - even the attribute of "existence" - is to deny "God."

"God does not exist. He is being itself beyond essence and existence. Therefore to argue that God exists is to deny him."

"Thus the question of the existence of God can neither be asked nor answered. If asked, it is a question about that which by it's very nature is above existence, and therefore the answer - whether negative or affirmative - implicitly denies the nature of God. It is as atheistic to affirm the existence of God as it is to deny it. God is being itself, not a being." - Systematic Theology, Volume I.

Though it's important to keep in mind I think that "God is being itself, not a being" is also just a metaphor.

I don't agree with the systematic approach.

It goes from point A and returns to point A, that God is above existence, therefore God is above the definition of existence. That's not true logic.

If God exists, then he is NOT above existence. To say that he is above ONE existence maybe, but I'm not sure you can go that far either.

It is better to say that if God is 'infinite' then he is not defined by a 'finite' set of parameters. For instance, if we are in 3 dimensions and God is in more, than 3 dimensions does not satisfactorily define God. We possibly can determine aspects of God by his interactions with our 3 dimensions, as a sphere that passes through a line, or even a dot, but it is droll and absolutely incomplete definition.

This is what is called 'revelation'. We say that God chooses to 'reveal' himself in certain ways, but it is not in a way that 'limits' Him, but in a way that only 'partially' defines Him, only one aspect of his much larger being.

But to say that God is INFINITE, means that the comprehension of Him is 'limitless', not necessarily impossible, but improbable. This is not the same as "to argue that God exists is to deny him".

 

[angellous_evangellous]

That's not true logic.

Is your god a product of logic?

 

[tomspug]

Is logic a product of man? Nope. Man is a product of God. God IS logic! What do you think the definition of 'just God' is?

 

[Wandered Off]

God IS logic!

So when holy texts or people tell us things about God that aren't logical, can we assume they're wrong?

 

[doppelganger]

It goes from point A and returns to point A, that God is above existence, therefore God is above the definition of existence. That's not true logic.

Sure it is. It's just a "strange loop."

Is the following logical proof valid:

Every Z has Y
x does not have Y
Therefore, x is not a Z

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Is logic a product of man? Nope. Man is a product of God. God IS logic! What do you think the definition of 'just God' is?

Holy rusted spikes, batman!

What a confused mind we have here.

*slaps head*

 

[angellous_evangellous]

God IS logic!

Behold your God!

Logic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the [Logic] seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3 And they were calling to one another:
"Holy, holy, holy is the [Logic] Almighty;
the whole earth is full of his glory."

 

[tomspug]

Oh Lord, what we have here is a bunch of people with small Gods.

When I say that God is logic, that's only ONE thing that God is... DUH! Try re-reading my post, maybe you'll GET IT this time.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Oh Lord, what we have here is a bunch of people with small Gods.

When I say that God is logic, that's only ONE thing that God is... DUH! Try re-reading my post, maybe you'll GET IT this time.

Your post is not very complex.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Too often heaven is seen as something FAR in the future. The Kingdom of heaven is NOW. How do you get there? You love your way into heaven.

Jesus said that you will know his disciples by WHAT?

He also said, "whatever you did to the least of these my brothers, you did also to me."


Heaven is often seen as a destination and that obscures what it really is: a quality of life. Heaven is being in communion with God by loving your neighbor. Hell is self imposed and consists of your hate for the same. Yeah, you can experience the joys of heaven right now by sacrificing of yourself and giving it to someone in need.

 

[tomspug]

Your post is not very complex.

No, your comprehension of it is not very complex.

Let me explain it to you. I tell you that God is logical. Your definition of Logic is that it is a man-made concept, therefore if God CAN BE defined by man-made logic, then God is limited by logic. This is a fallacy.

Logic is DEFINED by man, but it is merely a definition of a reality of logic. Logic is what defines US. Man was created by God. Since we are products of logic, so also logic comes from God, so I say to you that God IS logic. This is not merely what God is.

Unfortunately, some philosophers refuse to not allow anything to NOT be defined by logic, hence this systematic theology concept that God CANNOT be proven to exist since he is BEYOND logic. FALSE! Logic is one of the major arguments FOR God's existence. Why? Because logic is a product of intelligence. Pure logic hence is a product of pure intelligence.

While I packaged this in four short sentences, I assumed that others would be able to unpackage their meaning.

 

[Francine]

Logic is one of the major arguments FOR God's existence. Why? Because logic is a product of intelligence. Pure logic hence is a product of pure intelligence.

There is a procedure called the Sieve of Eratosthenes which can filter the prime numbers from the set of all integers. This procedure uses logic. You say logic is the product of intelligence. Does it follow that the distribution of prime numbers is the product of intelligence? In other words, were there no prime numbers until God spoke and said "2 is prime, 3 is prime, 5 is prime..." etc. ?

 

[tomspug]

Mathematics is a human equation of logic. It is a tool we use to determine order. Did there have to be 10 digits, 0-9? Prime numbers are determined by a system of tens and fives. It did not have to be this way.

So, to answer your question: yes.

 

[Francine]

Mathematics is a human equation of logic. It is a tool we use to determine order. Did there have to be 10 digits, 0-9? Prime numbers are determined by a system of tens and fives. It did not have to be this way.

Not so. Five is a prime number in base 10.
101 is a prime number in base 2.

They are the same number, regardless of base. And the status of 5/101 as prime does not change.

 

[tomspug]

OK, then my answer is still yes.

 

[zookeeper]

This is hard for me to admit, after all I have been a Christian for 25 years, but I don't really understand the concept of "original sin". I figure it must be when Adam and Eve committed their sin of disobedience and was passed on to us. The thing is, the Bible also states that people will not suffer for his or her parents sin. If that is true, then how can there be original sin?

I'll tell you what I believe...There is an original sin, which brought the world into its imperfect state. We all live in the world and are therefore affected by the "original sin". But not one of is held personally accountable when we are judged.

 

[Katzpur]

Everyone has heard of Jesus. Even in the Old Testament the people knew that a redeemer was coming, even though they did not know his name.

Yes, the people whose history is told in the Old Testament knew of Him, but those aren't the people I'm talking about. I'm talking, for instance, about people who lived during the first few centuries after Christ in parts of the world to which Christianity had not yet spread -- people in China or parts of Africa. It's hard for me to believe that you are seriously insisting that everyone has heard of Jesus. That's simply not true.

There is also a difference between not knowing about Christ, and never attempting to learn about Christ.

Yes there is, and there is a difference between not knowing about Christ because of an unwillingness to learn and because of circumstances beyond one's control. Think of the millions of children and young people in places like Iraq today where Christianity is forbidden, where -- if Christianity is mentioned at all -- it is not in a positive or truthful way. I you believe that God has decided to condemn all of these people to an eternity in Hell for having had the misfortune to be born at the wrong time and in the wrong place, I don't know how you can even conceive of calling him loving and merciful.

Romans 1 says that there is no excuse for not knowing God because creation has been telling us all about him. Psalms 19 says similar things, that creation has been telling us about God for all of time.

I agree, but knowing that God exists and understanding the gospel of Jesus Christ are two different things. The Jews and Muslims believe in God. Do you believe that's all that's necessary? If you don't, then find me a scripture that says there is no excuse for not believing in a Savior you know nothing about.

And it also says in Romans 3:23-26, that Jesus was not only a sacrifice for people that lived after him, but also the people before.

Yes, and I believe He was. I just don't believe -- because there is no logical reason to believe -- that everyone who has ever lived has been given the opportunity to hear Jesus Christ's gospel and accept His Atonement. You can continue to argue otherwise, but I hope you realize that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support your position.

Faith in Jesus is the only way to be saved, there is no other way.

Thank God for my God!

 

[Katzpur]

This is hard for me to admit, after all I have been a Christian for 25 years, but I don't really understand the concept of "original sin". I figure it must be when Adam and Eve committed their sin of disobedience and was passed on to us. The thing is, the Bible also states that people will not suffer for his or her parents sin. If that is true, then how can there be original sin?

There can't be. If Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of all who would accept Him, Adam was forgiven for his sin (or transgression). The concept of original sin would only make sense if we thought that somehow God did not accept Adam's repentence. He could not pass on a sin he had been forgiven of.

 

[Ratiocinative]

Yes, the people whose history is told in the Old Testament knew of Him, but those aren't the people I'm talking about. I'm talking, for instance, about people who lived during the first few centuries after Christ in parts of the world to which Christianity had not yet spread -- people in China or parts of Africa. It's hard for me to believe that you are seriously insisting that everyone has heard of Jesus. That's simply not true.

Yes there is, and there is a difference between not knowing about Christ because of an unwillingness to learn and because of circumstances beyond one's control. Think of the millions of children and young people in places like Iraq today where Christianity is forbidden, where -- if Christianity is mentioned at all -- it is not in a positive or truthful way. I you believe that God has decided to condemn all of these people to an eternity in Hell for having had the misfortune to be born at the wrong time and in the wrong place, I don't know how you can even conceive of calling him loving and merciful.

Why do you think the people in third world countries have an overwhelmingly higher percentage of converts to Christianity because of visions, as compared to first world countries? The highest being from Muslim countries. It is very easy to get online and find ex-Muslims Christian converts claiming to have had visions from Jesus, but I couldn’t any ex-Christian Muslim convert that claimed he had a vision that made him convert to Islam. God knows who are legitimately making an effort to please him and those who are just using religion as a way of accomplishing something for themselves. God seeks out those who are like Paul, those who willing to change when he corrects them. With the overwhelming majority of vision claims resulting in conversion to Christianity, as opposed to any other religion, you can’t argue that God doesn’t reveal himself to those who are seeking him, and if you aren't seeking him then you can't complain about not finding him.

I agree, but knowing that God exists and understanding the gospel of Jesus Christ are two different things. The Jews and Muslims believe in God. Do you believe that's all that's necessary? If you don't, then find me a scripture that says there is no excuse for not believing in a Savior you know nothing about.

Knowing the name Jesus isn’t what is important, knowing that we are sinners and that God provided the sacrifice to atone for those sins out of his mercy and kindness is what’s important. The Jews claim that God has not yet fulfilled his promise of providing an atoning sacrifice, and the Muslims do not believe there is any need for an atoning sacrifice for sins, so neither believes that God has provided a sacrifice to atone for our sins and will not be saved.

Yes, and I believe He was. I just don't believe -- because there is no logical reason to believe -- that everyone who has ever lived has been given the opportunity to hear Jesus Christ's gospel and accept His Atonement. You can continue to argue otherwise, but I hope you realize that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support your position.

As I said before:

John 16:4 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.”.

So what reason isn’t there to believe that everyone has had a chance to learn about Jesus? Of course I don’t doubt that many people rejected that chance, as it says many people do reject the truth about God in Romans 1.

Romans 1:18-20 18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. There is no evidence to support the idea that there are people who never had a chance to learn about Christ. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

There's tons of evidence to prove that everyone has had a chance to know about Jesus. With many people, especially in third world countries, having visions, having Christ shown to them in visions, scripture stating that Christ is the only way to be saved, that people have no excuse for not knowing God, that God wishes everyone would accept salvation, and that God has no favorites, it would be illogical and unscriptural to think that only some people ever get a chance to know about Jesus.