a question for those who still support bush

[lilithu]

I agree that WMD was the main reason that we went, but your claim that they cooked up the democracy thing after they couldn't find the WMDs isn't true.

I think they put the democracy thing in as an insurance policy to fall back on because they already suspected that their other reasons would not pan out. I have no confidence in Bush's intelligence, but his administration is full of smart people, and there is no way that they could have honestly been mistaken about the WMDs. I could tell as a civillian that was bogus; there is no way that people that smart with much more info than we were privy to were duped by faulty intelligence.

I personally could have cared less about the WMDs. I just wanted Sadaam out of there. That's why I supported the war. That doesn't mean that I have supported everything that has happened since.

I have the utmost respect for your reasons for supporting the war. I have two friends who fought in the first gulf war and both have told me how hard it was to leave without ousting Saddam. They both felt as if they let the Iraqis down, as if they didn't finish what they set out to do. (One supported the second war and the other didn't.) (Have you seen the movie "Three Kings" btw?)

But there were good reasons why Papa Bush did not remove Saddam in the first place while he was in a much better position to do so, with a true world coalition aligned with us. Toppling Saddam would have left a power vaccum that would have destabilized the whole region. Islamic extremists from Iran would have swarmed in to fill the vaccum. And instead of a despotic secular dictator who cared mostly about his own ego and greed, we would have had a country ruled by people who actively hate us, who consider us to be "the Great Satan." And I'm not so sure that isn't still the case. This "democracy" in Iraq may well turn into a puppet govt of Iran, unless we stay there and prevent that. But if we stay there and prevent that, it will look like we are setting up our own puppet govt to serve our interests, which is what it looks like.

Maybe none of these practical considerations matter. Maybe it doesn't matter that our soldiers have died under false pretenses. I'm not being sarcastic; part of me truly is sympathetic to your view that we should go in and stop oppression and suffering regardless of the costs. I just doubt that war was the best way to do it.

 

[lilithu]

I think that Bush would have liked to go to war in Iraq, Iran, and North Korea. Iraq was the easy one so he figured that he'd get it out of the way first.

I think you're right. But Iraq turned out to be a lot harder than he thought, didn't it?

 

[FFH]

Let me get this straight. The second coming of Christ will not happen until everyone is either Christian or there is no more war. So Bush is serving God by helping to usher in the second coming of Christ by waging war. Waging war for what? To create peace by killing everyone who opposes us? To convert everyone to Christianity? And where do you get this from? Where in the bible does it say that we need to stop terrorism in order for Christ to come again?

A MORE ACCURATE STATEMENT WOULD BE THAT WHEN CHRIST COMES ALL WARS WILL CEASE. LOOK AT THE BOOK OF REVELATION IN THE BIBLE (IT IS THE LAST BOOK)

ALL WARS AND PEOPLE WHO INITIATE WARS IN THE NAME OF A FALSE GOD WILL BE STOPPED BY THE COMING OF CHRIST HIMSELF.

BUSH IS WAGING WAR ON ALL WHO FIGHT AND KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE WHOMEVER THEY ARE CHRISTIAN. MUSLIM. JEW, ETC....THE WORLD MUST SUBMIT TO GOD AND END KILLING IN ALL COUNTRIES....THOSE WHO FIGHT AGAINST GOD WILL NOT WIN.....

BUSH NOR ANY SANE HUMAN BEING IS GOING TO MURDER ANOTHER HUMAN BEING UNLESS HE OR SHE FEELS THAT THEIR LIVES ARE IN DANGER....KILLING IS JUSTIFIED IN WAR BECAUSE OF SELF DEFENSE....EITHER KILL OR BE KILLED.....SAME RULE APPLIES IN LAW INFORCEMENT....THE U.S. MILITARY IS JUST A WORLD WIDE POLICE FORCE....THE MILITARY IS IN MANY COUNTRIES TO KEEP THE PEACE NOT WAGE WAR....THINK OF THE MILITARY AS A WORLD WIDE LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY....."TO PROTECT AND TO SERVE" IS THE MOTTO OF THE POLICE AND I THINK IT APPLIES TO MILITARY AS WELL. THE MILITARY IS A GIANT POLICE FORCE NOT A WAR MACHINE....AND BUSH IS HEAD OF THIS "POLICE FORCE" WHICH IS NOT A WAR MACHINE.....

IF WE CANNOT STOP TERRORISM OURSELVES BY ALL THAT WE CAN DO THEN CHRIST WILL COME AND STOP IT HIMSELF....THOSE THAT FIGHT AGAINST GOD WILL NOT WIN IS ALL THAT I AM SAYING....WE NEED TO PREPARE THE EARTH FOR JESUS CHRIST TO RULE AND REIGN HERE....WE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO STOP ALL TERRORISM OR CONVERT ALL TO CHRISTIANITY....THIS WILL BE UP TO GOD TO FINISH WHAT HE STARTED IN THE FIRST PLACE.......

 

[lilithu]

A MORE ACCURATE STATEMENT WOULD BE THAT WHEN CHRIST COMES ALL WARS WILL CEASE. LOOK AT THE BOOK OF REVELATION IN THE BIBLE (IT IS THE LAST BOOK)

ALL WARS AND PEOPLE WHO INITIATE WARS IN THE NAME OF A FALSE GOD WILL BE STOPPED BY THE COMING OF CHRIST HIMSELF.

BUSH IS WAGING WAR ON ALL WHO FIGHT AND KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE WHOMEVER THEY ARE CHRISTIAN. MUSLIM. JEW, ETC....THE WORLD MUST SUBMIT TO GOD AND END KILLING IN ALL COUNTRIES....THOSE WHO FIGHT AGAINST GOD WILL NOT WIN.....

BUSH NOR ANY SANE HUMAN BEING IS GOING TO MURDER ANOTHER HUMAN BEING UNLESS HE OR SHE FEELS THAT THEIR LIVES ARE IN DANGER....KILLING IS JUSTIFIED IN WAR BECAUSE OF SELF DEFENSE....EITHER KILL OR BE KILLED.....SAME RULE APPLIES IN LAW INFORCEMENT....THE U.S. MILITARY IS JUST A WORLD WIDE POLICE FORCE....THE MILITARY IS IN MANY COUNTRIES TO KEEP THE PEACE NOT WAGE WAR....THINK OF THE MILITARY AS A WORLD WIDE LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY....."TO PROTECT AND TO SERVE" IS THE MOTTO OF THE POLICE AND I THINK IT APPLIES TO MILITARY AS WELL. THE MILITARY IS A GIANT POLICE FORCE NOT A WAR MACHINE....AND BUSH IS HEAD OF THIS "POLICE FORCE" WHICH IS NOT A WAR MACHINE.....

IF WE CANNOT STOP TERRORISM OURSELVES BY ALL THAT WE CAN DO THEN CHRIST WILL COME AND STOP IT HIMSELF....THOSE THAT FIGHT AGAINST GOD WILL NOT WIN IS ALL THAT I AM SAYING....WE NEED TO PREPARE THE EARTH FOR JESUS CHRIST TO RULE AND REIGN HERE....WE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO STOP ALL TERRORISM OR CONVERT ALL TO CHRISTIANITY....THIS WILL BE UP TO GOD TO FINISH WHAT HE STARTED IN THE FIRST PLACE.......

So we're resorting to ALL CAPS are we? When logic doesn't work, try yelling.

If what you say is true, why does Bush need to wage war? Why doesn't he just wait for Christ to come and stop everything? Does he not have enough faith? hmmm? :162:

 

[FFH]

Ooops Typo

It Should Read Bush Not Any Sane Human Being Is Not Going To Murder Another Human Being Unless They Feel Their Lives Are In Danger

 

[Scuba Pete]

GO TO WWW.MICHAELSAVAGE.COM AND LOOK THE YOUNG SWEET INNOCENT CHRISTIAN INDONESIAN GIRLS HEAD LAYING BESIDE HER BODY AND THEN TELL ME WE SHOULD STOP THE WAR ON TERRORISM WHERE EVER IT MAY BE....IT IS EVERYWHERE NOW JUST LOOK AT THIS PAGE.....IT IS NOT JUST IN IRAQ ITS ALL OVER NOW.....

GEORGE BUSH IS DOING A GREAT JOB AND HE WILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT TERROR WHEREVER IT MAY BE......AND FREE ALL THE OPPRESSED AREAS OF THE WORLD

Dude... first: turn off the caps. They give me a headache!

Second: Shrub is a fear and war monger and has displayed no Christian ethics that I have seen.

Third: My saviour told me to turn the other cheek. What does YOUR saviour Bush say? He says kill 'em all! So Shrub failed these indonesian Christians. He has failed all of us, but you don't see that yet. You might.

 

[FFH]

Oops Again

It Should Read

Neither Bush Nor Any Sane Human Being Is Not Going To Murder Another Human Being Unless They Feel Their Lives Are In Danger

 

[lilithu]

Are you sure about that? I agree that more flocked to it to join in the fight, but I think it is a little naive to believe that there were no terrorists in Iraq before the war. I would consider Saddam a terrorist.

I think Sunstone is referring specifically to people who pose as civilians and blow other civilians up in order to destabilize the country.

I also think Sunstone was sarcastically commenting on the lack of preparedness that the Bush administation exhibited for terrorist attacks against our troops. i.e. - since they didn't take terrorist attacks into account when they planned their war strategy, they must have thought there were no terrorists there.

 

[lilithu]

Neither Bush Nor Any Sane Human Being Is Not Going To Murder Another Human Being Unless They Feel Their Lives Are In Danger

So Bush is insane. Well that explains it.

Seriously, there is a difference between self-defense in the face of imminent danger and paranoia. You are not justified in killing someone just because you're afraid of them.

 

[jonny]

I think you're right. But Iraq turned out to be a lot harder than he thought, didn't it?

Yep. Lots of poor planning. I don't think that it was necessarily harder. I think that part of the problem was that it was so easy in the beginning. I was expecting the Iraqis to fight a lot harder than they did. I think the government expected this also. When everything fell apart and people ran and hid in the cities things got hard. The type of warfare where people are not in a uniform is much harder to wage because you don't know who your enemy is.

 

[jonny]

Dude... first: turn off the caps. They give me a headache!

I second this motion! :banghead3

 

[FFH]

So we're resorting to ALL CAPS are we? When logic doesn't work, try yelling.

If what you say is true, why does Bush need to wage war? Why doesn't he just wait for Christ to come and stop everything? Does he not have enough faith? hmmm? :162:

ok i wont yell

I wans't yelling though.... Just trying to get some attention with caps and am too lazy to change to red like you Lilithu...... just trying to get my point accross with caps. I dont like being misunderstood so i cap when i feel misunderstood......and it is true that i am not good at getting my point across... I did not have the priveledge of finishing my higher education at the University as you may have had. I am just a foolish uneducated Mormon.....but I know my Bible and other scriptures better than most other Mormons.....

In answer to your second question I will ask a question

Why should any of us do anything to fight terrorism????? Why not just sit back and let the terrorists just do what they want??????? Why not just let murderers just keep on murdering??????

Like I said the military is just a giant police force....and Bush is the head of this police force....Bush and the military are only enforcing international law just as the local police enforce local law.....

Can we just sit back while people are being murdered??????????????????????

Have you not been to the link that shows a picture of an innocent Christian Indonesian girl with her head laying beside her??????

What did this girl do to deserve this????????

Nothing

She was murdered along with two others for one reason....SHE WAS A CHRISTIAN

NOT JUST ONE CHRISTIAN SCHOOL GIRL BUT THREE!!!!!!!!!!

THIS IS HORRIBLE AND SHOULD BE STOPPED WITH NOTHING LESS THAN MILITARY ACTION.....A GIANT POLICE FORCE

IF WE JUST SIT BACK AND DO NOTHING YOU AND I WILL BE NEXT ON THESE TERRORISTS LISTS JUST BECAUSE WE ARE WESTERNERS....FORGET ABOUT THE CHRISTIANS THEY WANT ALL WESTERNERS KILLED TOO..

THERE WERE MUSLIMS JEWS CHRISTIANS PAGENS, YOU NAME IT AND THEY WERE REPRESENTED THERE IN THE TWIN TOWERS ON 9/11.....

Muslims and Christians died together in the tower all in the name of a so called God named Allah.....

 

[lilithu]

Yep. Lots of poor planning. I don't think that it was necessarily harder. I think that part of the problem was that it was so easy in the beginning. I was expecting the Iraqis to fight a lot harder than they did. I think the government expected this also. When everything fell apart and people ran and hid in the cities things got hard. The type of warfare where people are not in a uniform is much harder to wage because you don't know who your enemy is.

I don't understand this. When the news reported that Iraqis were not fighting and instead running away, and that our troops were letting them run, I knew that many of these same people would be back to attack us in civilian clothes. And I don't claim to be a military strategist by any stretch of the imagination. I knew that's what was happening because we've been in that situation before, in Vietnam. Heck, I saw that scenario in the movie, Saving Private Ryan. If you let enemy soldiers go, they will come back later and kill you. That is the dillema in fighting a successful yet just war. It's amost impossible to do both, which is why it's best to avoid it altogether if possible. All of these scenarios should have been taken into consideration in the decision to go in. Instead it seems like they really were so delusional as to believe that we would be welcomed into the country with open arms.

 

[greatcalgarian]

We also haven't had any attacks by Godzilla. Clearly the Bush administration is so intimidating that even giant monsters now fear to mess with the U.S.

Do you honestly think that we're gonna win this fictitious "war on terror"? Are we just going to wake up one day and say, "Well that's it! We got 'em all! There's no more terrorists anywhere! Everyone can stop protecting themselves now." Nice fantasy you've got there.

This war never really about spreading democracy or protecting U.S. citizens--it was always about a certain fossil fuel and the immense profit that comes to those who control its distribution. It's not about the fact that all politicians seem to lie--it's about the magnitude of the Bush admin lies, and how those lies get people like you to support a guy who sends other people to get killed so that his family and friends can sleep in golden beds.

Looks like you are on the edge of believing a conspiracy theory that GB and Gang orchestrated the 9/11 to give them excuse to go into Afgan and Iraq.

 

[lilithu]

Why should any of us do anything to fight terrorism????? Why not just sit back and let the terrorists just do what they want??????? Why not just let murderers just keep on murdering??????

I would agree that we should fight terrorism. But this whole subthread started when I asked "who will watch the watchers?" Who will watch the people who are supposedly defending us to make sure that they don't cross the line? And you had the audacity to answer "God will." Why do you think that it is up to us to fight terrorism but it is not up to us to make sure that our "defenders" remain true and honest?

Muslims and Christians died together in the tower all in the name of a so called God named Allah.....

About 3,500 died in the twin towers in the name of Allah. Over 2,000 American soldiers and over 35,000 (possibly as high as 100,000) Iraqis have died in the name of your God. And the only difference that you can give me is that their god is false while yours is true. Yet that is exactly what the people who flew the airplanes into the towers thought - that your god is false while theirs is true. How many more people must die in the name of God?

 

[FFH]

How do you feel when you see a cop??????? it's either a good feeling or a bad one depending on what you are doing.....If you are speeding you feel anger (especially if you are pulled over and given a ticket) and when you are not speeding you feel peace and no angry feelings.

I think the same can be said when we view a man like Bush (who is in authority over us)....when there is something wrong inside of us we tend to hate the person of authority and when we are at peace with ourselves we tend to defend those in authority over us.

Just as a parent has our best interest at heart (but will make many mistakes) so does Bush have our best interest at heart....there is no doubt about that.....He is a human being and will mess up as does anyone in authority over us....We must allow others to make mistakes....This life is a life of learning and growing for all of us...Bush has done a wonderful job in keeping us safe here in America....and for those that die for us everyday we are in debt to them....They are not dying in vain......

 

[Sunstone]

Just as a parent has our best interest at heart (but will make many mistakes) so does Bush have our best interest at heart....there is no doubt about that.....

I do not see people in power as parental figures. Bush might be Saint George to you, but to me he's a politician, and one I'm increasinngly less fond of.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Faith, I may have many issues, but there is nothing wrong inside me, and there is certainly nothing wrong in disagreeing with the actions of this person.

Picture this in the analogy you gave: what if you were not speeding and the policeman pulled you over and gave you a ticket? Wouldn't you feel... not necessarily hatred, but righteous anger? I certainly do. Bush is taking money from by cutting funding for those who can need it, cutting environmental regulations, and cutting down many people's hope that the government is actually working for the good of the people.

(Editted to add, please, unless you are very young, limit yourself to one ending punctuation mark per sentance. They can be addicting, I know, but one makes the point quite effectively.)

 

[FFH]

I would agree that we should fight terrorism. But this whole subthread started when I asked "who will watch the watchers?" Who will watch the people who are supposedly defending us to make sure that they don't cross the line? And you had the audacity to answer "God will." Why do you think that it is up to us to fight terrorism but it is not up to us to make sure that our "defenders" remain true and honest?

There are those that are appointed in the White House and outside the White House to watch over the watchers every day....Lawyers, the senate, the house of representatives, congress, CIA agents, FBI agents, provate investigators, Judges, etc....not to mention the press and all the millions of Americans who constantly judge our leaders. No one in this country can or will get away with very much before being imprisoned, impeached, or fired. Look at what Clinton had to go through....George Bush would be impeached if it were the right thing to do....

About 3,500 died in the twin towers in the name of Allah. Over 2,000 American soldiers and over 35,000 (possibly as high as 100,000) Iraqis have died in the name of your God. And the only difference that you can give me is that their god is false while yours is true. Yet that is exactly what the people who flew the airplanes into the towers thought - that your god is false while theirs is true. How many more people must die in the name of God?

Our God does not delight in killing his own children....We do not kill in the name of God...We kill in the name of liberty and for the safety of ourselves and our loved ones here at home in America....Remember if we do not fight the terrorists they will come and kill us sooner or later there is no doubt of this....We are only buying time....sooner or later the terrorists will win for a small season or time and then the Savior Jesus Christ will come....If you think it is bad now just wait a few years and it will get much worse....I dont want to be here when that happens and thats why I have talked about the +Rapture" or catching away of all those that believe in Christ......This raprure will happen before everything gets too bad otherwise all christians would possibly be killed....There are more of them than there are of us....We are in the minority now....

 

[FFH]

ooops I did not post that right.....my first statement is in the middle of your rwo red statements