A Question to 'Anti-Zionists'

[LuisDantas]

The problem is that it makes, imo, Zionism fall apart if it really is a matter of religion.

I can only assume you are not very well aware of how culture and religion mix and influence each other in Judaism. Not that I am an expert or anything, but I have learned some things along the years, not all of them being how to gain weight and lose hair.

Even for Orthodox Rabbis, Judaism is mainly about union and mutual duty. They take religion a lot more seriously than the average Christian or even Muslim community, particularly on the matters of accepting each other and paying the prices for doing so. It is not about belief and, in a way, it is not about conversion either. It is about family, including adopted (but earned) family.

 

[xkatz]

You can't say this isn't really about religion, since anyone can convert to Judaism and be considered a full-fledged Jew.

You do realize that Judaism is perhaps one of the most difficult religions in world to fully practice and conversion is not something that is just spontaneous (even in progressive communities). And Israel only accepts the orthodox conversions as valid.

Heck, I'm Jewish and I admit that I am not that good at following it

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I can only assume you are not very well aware of how culture and religion mix and influence each other in Judaism. Not that I am an expert or anything, but I have learned some things along the years, not all of them being how to gain weight and lose hair.

Even for Orthodox Rabbis, Judaism is mainly about union and mutual duty. They take religion a lot more seriously than the average Christian or even Muslim community, particularly on the matters of accepting each other and paying the prices for doing so. It is not about belief and, in a way, it is not about conversion either. It is about family, including adopted (but earned) family.

Um, devout Catholic and Orthodox Christians have similar views on the seriousness of religiosity that Orthodox Jews have with lots of rituals to go along with it. Besides, many Jews aren't even religious at all, similar to how Christians have nominal and lapsed Christians.

So your comment didn't clear anything up, I'm afraid.

 

[LuisDantas]

A fair question to ask, but I would say such things have more to do with the gov't policies.

I don't disagree as such. But if you expect a purely political solution to be possible at this point, you probably have a lot more faith in the wisdom and actual power of politics than I do.

From my admitedly limited and unreliable perspective, it looks like we have definitely gone beyond the point where it is reasonable to hope for politicians to have the power to solve the situation at a morally acceptable price. Actual serious sacrifice is not only necessary, but also unavoidable.

The problem is every Israeli thinks there a politician with all the answers.

Doesn't everyone?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You do realize that Judaism is perhaps one of the most difficult religions in world to fully practice and conversion is not something that is just spontaneous (even in progressive communities). And Israel only accepts the orthodox conversions as valid.

Heck, I'm Jewish and I admit that I am not that good at following it

I know that and it still doesn't take any from my point.

 

[Thana]

Fair enough.

It's just that this matter is not clearly defined. If anyone can become a Jew, then it really is about religion and religious traditions and not so much about ethnicity. So that would make Zionism a form of religious nationalism since you would have to say that the Holy Land is where Judaism was born but not where all Jews can trace their family lines.

Well that's not true. Anyone can convert to Judaism, But not everyone can be a Jew and be accepted into Israel.

My father was interested in moving to Israel, But to do so he had to have enough Jewish ancestry in his blood. Which he does. You can't just convert to Judaism and wham bam Israel is your new home.

 

[xkatz]

Doesn't everyone?

Not like Israelis I can guarantee you

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well that's not true. Anyone can convert to Judaism, But not everyone can be a Jew and be accepted into Israel.

My father was interested in moving to Israel, But to do so he had to have enough Jewish ancestry in his blood. Which he does. You can't just convert to Judaism and wham bam Israel is your new home.

Since when does Israel have blood requirements?

 

[LuisDantas]

Um, devout Catholic and Orthodox Christians have similar views on the seriousness of religiosity that Orthodox Jews have with lots of rituals to go along with it. Besides, many Jews aren't even religious at all, similar to how Christians have nominal and lapsed Christians.

So your comment didn't clear anything up, I'm afraid.

I fear it did not at that, so I will try once more.

From what I have learned, the similarity is very over-rated. Jewish People are Jewish People. It does not really matter if they are religious, they are no less Jewish People for that, even according to Ultra Orthodox Rabbis. They do not really allow themselves exceptions, although they do allow conversions (often somewhat reluctantly at that).

Conversion seems to be not so much about one adopting the beliefs of Judaism (although at least learning what they are to the point of being fluent seems to be a basic part of it) as of convincing the Jewish community that you are reliable, respectful and worth their commitment (which of course involves being commited to them by your own turn).

In that sense it is quite unlike Christianity. Christianity claims to be for all that will accept it. Judaism (apparently) claims to be for all that will accept to earn their place within its ranks with the necessary commitment, as well as for their properly raised descendents - and that is really about it. Being Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, or even non-Religious does not really figure a lot into it. Being raised in the culture or making a very serious effort at making up for lacking that opportunity do.

Edited to add: of course that is an outsider's view, and I fully expect the actual Jewish members of the forum to correct me as they see fit. As is, after all, only fair!

 

[Thana]

Since when does Israel have blood requirements?

I'm not sure about the specifics, But I believe to move to Israel on the grounds that you're Jewish is not the same process as moving to Israel because you want too etc.

 

[xkatz]

Since when does Israel have blood requirements?

The requirements are either:

A) You must have at least one Jewish grandparent (this doesn't necessarily make you Jewish though under religious law funnily enough) w/ proof of ancestry

or

B) You must be converted under the guidance of an approved orthodox (EDIT: or conservative) rabbi if you were not born Jewish and wish to convert

There is probably a measure for if you are married to an Israeli citizen, but I am not sure what that is.

 

[jewscout]

I fear it did not at that, so I will try once more.

From what I have learned, the similarity is very over-rated. Jewish People are Jewish People. It does not really matter if they are religious, they are no less Jewish People for that, even according to Ultra Orthodox Rabbis. They do not really allow themselves exceptions, although they do allow conversions (often somewhat reluctantly at that).

Conversion seems to be not so much about one adopting the beliefs of Judaism (although at least learning what they are to the point of being fluent seems to be a basic part of it) as of convincing the Jewish community that you are reliable, respectful and worth their commitment (which of course involves being commited to them by your own turn).

In that sense it is quite unlike Christianity. Christianity claims to be for all that will accept it. Judaism (apparently) claims to be for all that will accept to earn their place within its ranks with the necessary commitment, as well as for their properly raised descendents - and that is really about it. Being Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, or even non-Religious does not really figure a lot into it. Being raised in the culture or making a very serious effort at making up for lacking that opportunity do.

Edited to add: of course that is an outsider's view, and I fully expect the actual Jewish members of the forum to correct me as they see fit. As is, after all, only fair!

for the most part, you hit the nail on the head

I AM a convert to Judaism AND citizen of Israel as well. To convert into Judaism is not just about accepting religious tenants but about becoming a part of a people, a history, a culture. It's more like becoming a citizen of a country than becoming a member of a faith group. You study and learn, live the lifestyle, become connected to the people, the shared history, the joys and the sorrows...all this before having to go before a rabbinical tribunal and basically be put on trial to not only test your religious knowledge but your steadfastness to becoming a part of Klal Yisrael (And even then they can say, no, and not permit you to convert) By the time you are done you have fully taken on a new identity, you feel as attached to the people as anyone born a Jew.

Whether I remain observant or fall away, whether my children do, does not change the nature of our "Jewishness". its a weird duality of faith and ethnic culture that is uniquely Jewish and that weird duality has followed us in the establishment of a Jewish State, a nation which is secular yet so much of the goings on, culturally and politically, are infused with religion. I mean even the office of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel is run out of the Prime Ministers office!

anyways, that's that...JEWSCOUT OUT!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The requirements are either:

A) You must have at least one Jewish grandparent (this doesn't necessarily make you Jewish though under religious law funnily enough) w/ proof of ancestry

or

B) You must be converted under the guidance of an approved orthodox rabbi

There is probably a measure for if you are married to an Israeli citizen, but I am not sure what that is.

Thanks. That makes sense. I guess Thana's dad wasn't a religious Jew.

 

[jewscout]

The requirements are either:

A) You must have at least one Jewish grandparent (this doesn't necessarily make you Jewish though under religious law funnily enough) w/ proof of ancestry

or

B) You must be converted under the guidance of an approved orthodox rabbi

There is probably a measure for if you are married to an Israeli citizen, but I am not sure what that is.

orthodox conversion is not required for Aliyah, and yes if you are married to an Israeli citizen you can gain citizen ship.

 

[xkatz]

orthodox conversion is not required for Aliyah

Huh

 

[jewscout]

Huh

it's not, you could have a Conservative conversion and make Aliyah

 

[xkatz]

it's not, you could have a Conservative conversion and make Aliyah

HERESY!

(I feel like a moron for not knowing that!)

 

[jewscout]

HERESY!

(I feel like a moron for not knowing that!)

haha no worries

anyways we're getting off topic

 

[LuisDantas]

for the most part, you hit the nail on the head

I AM a convert to Judaism AND citizen of Israel as well. To convert into Judaism is not just about accepting religious tenants but about becoming a part of a people, a history, a culture. It's more like becoming a citizen of a country than becoming a member of a faith group. You study and learn, live the lifestyle, become connected to the people, the shared history, the joys and the sorrows...all this before having to go before a rabbinical tribunal and basically be put on trial to not only test your religious knowledge but your steadfastness to becoming a part of Klal Yisrael (And even then they can say, no, and not permit you to convert) By the time you are done you have fully taken on a new identity, you feel as attached to the people as anyone born a Jew.

Whether I remain observant or fall away, whether my children do, does not change the nature of our "Jewishness". its a weird duality of faith and ethnic culture that is uniquely Jewish and that weird duality has followed us in the establishment of a Jewish State, a nation which is secular yet so much of the goings on, culturally and politically, are infused with religion. I mean even the office of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel is run out of the Prime Ministers office!

anyways, that's that...JEWSCOUT OUT!

Thanks! That is a very pragmatic and realistic view, by my appraisal. It emphasizes mutual acknowledgement and recognition over what may often be deep differences of opinion.

I guess it is only natural for a people who have learned such a commited lifestyle to want a place to live it.

You seem to have learned to be very upfront about your disagreements, but not at the expense of mutual respect. Of course, that is only possible when there is a certain kind of reciprocity, which I guess goes a long way to explain the somewhat reserved nature of Jewish society.

 

[Thana]

Thanks. That makes sense. I guess Thana's dad wasn't a religious Jew.

No, My dad is Christian but he identifies strongly with his Jewish heritage.