A Question to 'Anti-Zionists'

[Estro Felino]

I get that not everyone is going to agree with Israeli gov't and it's policy, for good reasons. But Zionism at it's core is basically more or less self-determination for Jews. So unless you are a hardcore Marxist or anti-nationalist, why do other peoples have (or should have) the right to self-determination and nationhood if they want, but Jews don't?

Let's not talk about how the state of Israel was created.
Now in this land there are two main nationalities: so, they are supposed to live pacifically together, but in order to do that, this state is supposed to represent both of them. That is, there should be Hebrew-speaking representatives and Arabic-speaking representatives.

In Belgium there are French speakers and Dutch speakers: they both are in charge.

 

[Maldini]

It's a fact that a lot of people do hate Jews.

 

[Tarheeler]

In what way ill-informed? I would like to learn and correct myself. It is really important that people make corrections to themselves,dont you think?

It's ill-informed for the same reason Saint Frankenstein's argument is ill-informed: They completely ignore the history and formation of the Zionist movement and completely disregard the complex cultural and ethnic components of what it means to be Jewish. Several people, both Jewish and not, have now addressed the complex nature of being Jewish in this thread, and their explanations are good ones. You can either learn from them, or you can ignore them and continue with your preconceived notions.

 

[LuisDantas]

It's a fact that a lot of people do hate Jews.

That, I don't quite get. Hating the Jewish policies, sure. It is very easy to do when they keep brandishing the IDF towards civilians. But the Jewish themselves?

 

[ametist]

I said zion and israel are religious terms and i even said i have no problem with religious states or single ethnicity states. I said you can even have a single gender state if you think that is practical and wont disturb any laws of living as a human and wont cause any trouble with your interaction to the outer world. The point is you are still not explaining What complexity i ignored?
Many people jewish or not 'other than me' might have addressed the issue correctly in this thread but it seems i wont be able to do it untill you manage to open up your complexity.

 

[Estro Felino]

It's a fact that a lot of people do hate Jews.

well...I don't think that Jews think that non-Jews are equal to them. In the past marriages between Jews and non-Jews were not so frequent...

 

[CMike]

That, I don't quite get. Hating the Jewish policies, sure. It is very easy to do when they keep brandishing the IDF towards civilians. But the Jewish themselves?

Yes, the jews themselves.

 

[CMike]

The requirements are either:

A) You must have at least one Jewish grandparent (this doesn't necessarily make you Jewish though under religious law funnily enough) w/ proof of ancestry

or

B) You must be converted under the guidance of an approved orthodox (EDIT: or conservative) rabbi if you were not born Jewish and wish to convert

There is probably a measure for if you are married to an Israeli citizen, but I am not sure what that is.

To be jewish:

1) Your mother is jewish

2) You converted to judaism.

 

[metis]

Fair enough.

It's just that this matter is not clearly defined. If anyone can become a Jew, then it really is about religion and religious traditions and not so much about ethnicity. So that would make Zionism a form of religious nationalism since you would have to say that the Holy Land is where Judaism was born but not where all Jews can trace their family lines.

Let me try and sort this out. "Zionism" was not borne out of a religious concept but a secular one that had some religious overtones, but religion was certainly not the main motivation. Most of the early "Zionist" leaders were secular Jews.

As far as Jews who converted are concerned, the teachings are that once one converts to Judaism it is as if you are part of the "family" and were born a Jew. The first is covered in the narrative with Ruth who converted and said essentially that "my people are your people". The reason for the latter is to make certain that converts don't get looked at as second-class Jews, and that they therefore have the full right of all other Jews.

We could debate until the cows come home whether Israel should have been created out of the 1/6 of "Palestine" allotted to it by the U.N., but the fact is that Israel exists, so I would hope our concentration should be more on what should we do now.

 

[metis]

Since when does Israel have blood requirements?

Because of the "Law of Return". All born Jews must be accepted into Israel, but the question of whether this should apply to all converted Jews has long been a disputed point because the orthodox do not recognize the conversions in other branches. However, generally speaking, in time of crisis, all Jews, including the secular, are invited in.

 

[ametist]

To be jewish:

1) Your mother is jewish

2) You converted to judaism.

Are you still jewish if your jewish mother isnt judaist anymore and converted to another religion and you , too, arent considering yourself a judaist anymore?

 

[LuisDantas]

well...I don't think that Jews think that non-Jews are equal to them. In the past marriages between Jews and non-Jews were not so frequent...

How is that any worse than any other kind of Nationalism or ethnic pride, exactly? It seems to me that it is in fact more enlightened and questioned than most.

 

[xkatz]

To be jewish:

1) Your mother is jewish

2) You converted to judaism.

I am talking about aliyah requirements, not halacha.

 

[xkatz]

Let's not talk about how the state of Israel was created.
Now in this land there are two main nationalities: so, they are supposed to live pacifically together, but in order to do that, this state is supposed to represent both of them. That is, there should be Hebrew-speaking representatives and Arabic-speaking representatives.

In Belgium there are French speakers and Dutch speakers: they both are in charge.

I would argue:

1) There aren't many cultural differences between the Flemish and Walloons aside from language. The cultural differences between the Arab Palestinians and Jewish Israelis are vast, especially in terms of religion.

2) Belgium is largely the exception in plural nations. Countries like former Yugoslavia, former Czechoslovakia, Nigeria, Rwanda, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, etc. show why this doesn't usually work out. I really think such a plan would only increase bloodshed- potentially to the point of genocide, unfortunately.

3) This basically denies the aspirations of both Israelis and Palestinians.

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes, the jews themselves.

I don't dispute that it does happen. I believe there is an island in France that is infamous for how many of the Jewish People were basically slain there in order to steal their property, centuries ago. And the persecution against Russian Jews is well-known. And there is, of course, World War Two.

But other than in situations such as that of the Middle East or perhaps in some cultural and religious clashes (mainly with Muslims), it is not really easy to understand.

 

[metis]

I don't dispute that it does happen. I believe there is an island in France that is infamous for how many of the Jewish People were basically slain there in order to steal their property, centuries ago. And the persecution against Russian Jews is well-known. And there is, of course, World War Two.

But other than in situations such as that of the Middle East or perhaps in some cultural and religious clashes (mainly with Muslims), it is not really easy to understand.

When you're a conspicuous minority in all countries except one, and when you don't accept the "native" religion and some of the even secular customs and traditions, it's not that hard to understand. Brazil, much like the U.S. and Israel, is really a melting pot of different religions and customs, but the same is not true of most locations traditionally.

For a rather stupid example that comes to mind, when we stayed with my wife's relatives in Sicily, they could not wrap their heads around the fact that my Catholic wife was married to a Jew, let alone to try and understand why we kept kosher. Basically it's the mind-set that Sicilians are supposed to be Catholic.

Or remember the conflict in what used to be Yugoslavia. Or remember the treatment of Amerindians in the U.S. and Brazil. Unfortunately, attempts at genocide aren't that uncommon.

BTW, I live in Michigan, and here the Iroquois pretty much wiped out the Huron a couple of centuries ago with what historians believe were roughly 20,000 Huron killed in one day.

 

[Estro Felino]

For a rather stupid example that comes to mind, when we stayed with my wife's relatives in Sicily, they could not wrap their heads around the fact that my Catholic wife was married to a Jew, let alone to try and understand why we kept kosher. Basically it's the mind-set that Sicilians are supposed to be Catholic.

well..Sicily is full of uneducated tawdry people. Cosmopolitan families like mine are very rare, unfortunately; and having a cosmopolitan open mind is often seen as weirdness. By the way, ignorance doesn't prevent Sicilians from loving everyone.
In fact we are literally invaded by African populations, and we are really tolerant with them; the Sicilian man is curious, so loves confrontation with other nations and populations.
We allow them to build mosques, to work and to have a dignifying decent life. As you can see, living with Muslims, is possible.
The Muslims I've met were really nice, speak French and are open-minded, and they never talk about religion. The countries where they come from, Morocco or Tunisia are culturally developed.

 

[metis]

well..Sicily is full of uneducated tawdry people. Cosmopolitan families like mine are very rare, unfortunately; and having a cosmopolitan open mind is often seen as weirdness. By the way, ignorance doesn't prevent Sicilians from loving everyone.

That's what my wife keeps telling me.

In fact we are literally invaded by African populations, and we are really tolerant with them;...

My wife has very Moorish characteristics as do a lot of Sicilians-- she's short and round-faced.

As you can see, living with Muslims, is possible. The Muslims I've met were really nice, speak French and are open-minded, and they never talk about religion. The countries where they come from, Morocco or Tunisia are culturally developed.

Same here. I have had a lot of interaction with Muslems over the years as I had many as students, plus I have been involved in a lot of ecumenical activities here and elsewhere.

 

[Godobeyer]

I am anti-zionism (not anti-jewish) because of lot of reasons , this is top one of them :

Rabbi Ovadia Yosef says in Saturday sermon that 'Goyim have no place in the world - only to serve the People of Israel'; ADL chief calls Yosef's words 'hateful' and 'divisive'.

from this link

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it's indeed hatefull and divisive as they said .

 

[xkatz]

I am anti-zionism (not anti-jewish) because of lot of reasons , this is top one of them :

Rabbi Ovadia Yosef says in Saturday sermon that 'Goyim have no place in the world - only to serve the People of Israel'; ADL chief calls Yosef's words 'hateful' and 'divisive'.

from this link

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it's indeed hatefull and divisive as they said .

What the rabbi said is terrible, but what does it have to do with Zionism itself? Just because one person said something stupid means that ALL JEWS don't have a right to self-determination/nationhood?