A Return to the Argument from Evil (by Epicurus)

[InChrist]

Why does the consequence of sin has to be death? Is God incapable of changing this?

Seems to me that death is a good consequence for sin, the only feasible consequence, if the final goal is an eternal universe free of sin. I assume if there was a better way God would be capable of doing it, so putting sin to must be the best way.

 

[Koldo]

Seems to me that death is a good consequence for sin, the only feasible consequence, if the final goal is an eternal universe free of sin. I assume if there was a better way God would be capable of doing it, so putting sin to must be the best way.

I am not sure I am properly understanding you.
Are you equating an eternal universe free of sin with our utmost well-being?

I can imagine an universe where certain sins exist and where our utmost well-being remains intact. Just to cite one example: the very first commandment.

It is also possible to imagine an universe with no sin and everyone living quite a miserable life.

If you are not equating the two, then why did you mention an universe free of sin?

 

[InChrist]

I am not sure I am properly understanding you.
Are you equating an eternal universe free of sin with our utmost well-being?

I can imagine an universe where certain sins exist and where our utmost well-being remains intact. Just to cite one example: the very first commandment.

It is also possible to imagine an universe with no sin and everyone living quite a miserable life.

If you are not equating the two, then why did you mention an universe free of sin?

Yes, I am equating the two. I don’t believe sin is compatible with our utmost well-being and in fact I think it is detrimental and harmful.

 

[Koldo]

Yes, I am equating the two. I don’t believe sin is compatible with our utmost well-being and in fact I think it is detrimental and harmful.

Then why is it possible to imagine people living extremely happy and fruitful lives while at the same time believing in other gods? And why did God make it so there are things that count as a sin, rather than not defining anything as a sin?

 

[1213]

So then "freedom" has absolutely nothing to do with why evil acts happen, since not actually being able to commit acts doesn't limit your "freedom."

Sorry, if I am unclear to you, but obviously, even if everything is not possible, it doesn’t mean person can’t choose when he has several options. And when you have for example the opportunity to kill or no to kill, it is your choice and what you choose, tells are you evil or not. If you can choose to understand this or not, I hope you choose wisely.

 

[1213]

So we do agree that I can't do all evil for I am not powerful enough to do all evil. Which means there is a limit on what kinds of evil I can choose to do. But if you insist that I still possess freedom, regardless of this limitation, what is the exact limit on the choices I can make before it can be said I no longer possess this freedom?...

To me freedom means that when there are different options, I can choose what I want to pick. For example, I can ignore you or I can answer to you, I have freedom to choose, and I choose to answer. It was my choice, by the freedom I have. And in the case of evil, people have freedom to do evil, or not to do evil, it is their own free choice.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sorry, if I am unclear to you, but obviously, even if everything is not possible, it doesn’t mean person can’t choose when he has several options. And when you have for example the opportunity to kill or no to kill, it is your choice and what you choose, tells are you evil or not. If you can choose to understand this or not, I hope you choose wisely.

My point is that if God had created a universe with no opportunity to kill, "freedom" - as you've explained it - could still be preserved.

This means that "freedom" does nothing to explain why God created all the opportunities to kill that he supposedly did.

... and without any opportunities to kill, there would be no killing.

 

[Koldo]

To me freedom means that when there are different options, I can choose what I want to pick. For example, I can ignore you or I can answer to you, I have freedom to choose, and I choose to answer. It was my choice, by the freedom I have. And in the case of evil, people have freedom to do evil, or not to do evil, it is their own free choice.

Consider for instance an individual unable to punch someone to death, for he doesn't have arms and hands that would enable someone to punch others to death. This individual is unable to choose this evil.

From this, two possibilities arise:

1) If this individual doesn't possess freedom because he is unable to punch others to death, then why did God allow this happen? Why is there an individual lacking in freedom? His existence would contradict God's existence.

2) However, If he does possess freedom, then being able to punch others to death is not necessary to retain freedom, in which case, why isn't it impossible to punch others to death for the rest of us too?

 

[Koldo]

Sorry, if I am unclear to you, but obviously, even if everything is not possible, it doesn’t mean person can’t choose when he has several options. And when you have for example the opportunity to kill or no to kill, it is your choice and what you choose, tells are you evil or not. If you can choose to understand this or not, I hope you choose wisely.

My point is that if God had created a universe with no opportunity to kill, "freedom" - as you've explained it - could still be preserved.

This means that "freedom" does nothing to explain why God created all the opportunities to kill that he supposedly did.

... and without any opportunities to kill, there would be no killing.

Just to add another frame of reference to what 9-10ths_Penguin said:

Is it possible for us to make the choice to kill God? I mean, actually kill him as a whole in a manner that he would not be able to rise himself from the dead?

There is simply no choice and opportunity to kill God that way and yet we have freedom, right? Then why must there be the choice to kill humans?

 

[InChrist]

Then why is it possible to imagine people living extremely happy and fruitful lives while at the same time believing in other gods? And why did God make it so there are things that count as a sin, rather than not defining anything as a sin?

Well, according to the biblical scriptures there is only one God, other “gods” are not real. So a person believing in false gods would be living in deception. I don’t think that could accurately be happy and fruitful.
I don’t quite understand your last question.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, according to the biblical scriptures there is only one God, other “gods” are not real. So a person believing in false gods would be living in deception. I don’t think that could accurately be happy and fruitful.
I don’t quite understand your last question.

That is only in your interpretation of the Bible. The Old Testament clearly supports the existence of other gods. Yahweh was only the toughest one of them. Again unsurprisingly only according to the Old Testament.

 

[InChrist]

That is only in your interpretation of the Bible. The Old Testament clearly supports the existence of other gods. Yahweh was only the toughest one of them. Again unsurprisingly only according to the Old Testament.

Thanks for sharing your opinion. You are certainly free to your views on the Bible. But I believe the scriptures interpret themselves and are abundantly clear there is no other (real) God but the One who created heaven and earth and all life. Other gods are acknowledging only in so far as pointing out that they are worthless idols created by humans, which are often attached to demonic worship.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Thanks for sharing your opinion. You are certainly free to your views on the Bible. But I believe the scriptures interpret themselves and are abundantly clear there is no other (real) God but the One who created heaven and earth and all life. Other gods are acknowledging only in so far as pointing out that they are worthless idols created by humans, which are often attached to demonic worship.

That is only your interpretation and runs contrary to the Old Testament.

 

[Koldo]

Well, according to the biblical scriptures there is only one God, other “gods” are not real. So a person believing in false gods would be living in deception. I don’t think that could accurately be happy and fruitful.

If that's the issue, then why make it possible to believe in falsehoods? It is not like someone can willfully believe in them.

I don’t quite understand your last question.

What makes a sin to be a sin if not God's sovereignty? Why did God define anything as a sin?

 

[1213]

...
Is it possible for us to make the choice to kill God? ...

We have that freedom to make that choice, but not the ability to actually kill Him.

 

[1213]

Consider for instance an individual unable to punch someone to death, for he doesn't have arms and hands that would enable someone to punch others to death. This individual is unable to choose this evil.
...

He is able to choose, but not able to commit.

 

[1213]

My point is that if God had created a universe with no opportunity to kill, "freedom" - as you've explained it - could still be preserved.

This means that "freedom" does nothing to explain why God created all the opportunities to kill that he supposedly did.....

Ok, thanks, that clarifies the point. If the question is, why is some evil things possible, I believe the reason is that people wanted to know evil and were sent to this “Matrix” to learn what it means. This is why I believe many evil things are possible in this world.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ok, thanks, that clarifies the point. If the question is, why is some evil things possible, I believe the reason is that people wanted to know evil and were sent to this “Matrix” to learn what it means. This is why I believe many evil things are possible in this world.

So you think that evil is a deliberate creation of God, then?

 

[Koldo]

He is able to choose, but not able to commit.

We have that freedom to make that choice, but not the ability to actually kill Him.

Awesome. Then why has God made it so we are able to choose and commit other evils? Certainly the justification can not be freedom, for there are certain evils we are already unable to commit and God has no qualms with that.

 

[Koldo]

Ok, thanks, that clarifies the point. If the question is, why is some evil things possible, I believe the reason is that people wanted to know evil and were sent to this “Matrix” to learn what it means. This is why I believe many evil things are possible in this world.

Do you mean God doesn't possess the power to grant the knowledge about evil in any other way?