A Return to the Argument from Evil (by Epicurus)

[InChrist]

That would be correct. The Bible, in my view, cannot possibly be anything like a communication from something that I would call a deity. Believers can't bring themselves to see, but the thing is so chock full of contradictions, ambiguity, error -- and sometimes even pure evil -- that such a notion is ludicrous. Also, I have spent some time studying (though I am no scholar by any stretch) how and when the many books of the Bible were written, including the many parallels that disagree with one another. To do this, because I'm not a scholar, I have had to rely on the scholarship of others -- but I have always been careful to check sources.

So the answer is: the Bible isn't God speaking. And I've certainly had no other form of communication from Him -- therefore, God has never communicated with me.

Thanks for elaborating. While I don’t agree with your assessment of the Bible, I can understand it. I was not a believer until age 31 and until that time I held some similar thoughts about the Bible. It was so bizarre, confusing and nonsensical. I don’t remember actually considering it to be evil like you do, though. Then I was saved by Christ. All I can say is that from that moment on when I read that same Bible and verses I tried reading before to no positive avail, it was different; it became understandable and message or points clear. I’m no scholar either, though. Yet, I do like to research and check sources, especially since there are so many twisted false teachings within the church.
I also started recalling situations in my life where God had very clearly intervened, protected or led me in the past, even communicated in a sense, but I had not noticed or ignored. I think I had occasional thoughts that maybe God is there, but those didn’t last too long.
Anyway, just my experience, not to negate yours at all.

 

[viole]

Fact is if you shot a little kid, you would be guilty of murder...you know it, I know it, everyone knows it.

I know, but what about my question? Did I make the world any worse, long term, by doing that?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Koldo]

I already said both are important. It seems to me that God considers human freedom of utmost importance for our utmost well-being. Do have any thoughts about why that may be?

Okay. So you see freedom as being a necessary part of achieving the utmost well-being.

Three questions:

1) Why do you think that's the case?
2) What kind of freedom is necessary? For instance, there are people unable to move their bodies. How is this compatible with your view?
3) How do you explain natural evil? Natural evil is that which is caused by nature. Think of earthquakes and tsunami.

 

[InChrist]

I know, but what about my question? Did I make the world any worse, long term, by doing that?

Ciao

- viole

Maybe, I can’t specifically answer that because I am not God. I don’t know everything. I don’t know if the child killed would have done something truly beneficial for the world or even their own family or community. Nevertheless, I would say the world is made worse because every life has intrinsic value and the loss of even one likely leaves a void we can’t fully fathom.
Just my thoughts. I realize you have your own views.

 

[InChrist]

Okay. So you see freedom as being a necessary part of achieving the utmost well-being.

Three questions:

1) Why do you think that's the case?
2) What kind of freedom is necessary? For instance, there are people unable to move their bodies. How is this compatible with your view?
3) How do you explain natural evil? Natural evil is that which is caused by nature. Think of earthquakes and tsunami.

1. Because according to the scriptures, humans are made in the image of God and I believe true freedom is included in that image bestowed upon those God created.

2. God’s primary focus and goal is eternal freedom. This fallen planet with all its problems is temporary and all those with infirmities who desire the eternal life God offers will receive wholeness forever in their imperishable bodies in the new heaven and earth.

3. The Bible says all of creation is groaning and waiting for God’s redemptive plan to be fulfilled (Romans 8:19-22) As I said above, this is a fallen planet which is in upheaval, damaged and decaying due to the impact of sin resulting in things like earthquakes, tsunamis, and other natural disasters.

 

[Koldo]

1. Because according to the scriptures, humans are made in the image of God and I believe true freedom is included in that image bestowed upon those God created.

Alright.

2. God’s primary focus and goal is eternal freedom. This fallen planet with all its problems is temporary and all those with infirmities who desire the eternal life God offers will receive wholeness forever in their imperishable bodies in the new heaven and earth.

What do you mean by 'eternal freedom'?

3. The Bible says all of creation is groaning and waiting for God’s redemptive plan to be fulfilled (Romans 8:19-22) As I said above, this is a fallen planet which is in upheaval, damaged and decaying due to the impact of sin resulting in things like earthquakes, tsunamis, and other natural disasters.

Why doesn't God get rid of natural evil right away rather than later on?
What is the justification?

 

[InChrist]

Alright.



What do you mean by 'eternal freedom'?



Why doesn't God get rid of natural evil right away rather than later on?
What is the justification?

By eternal freedom I mean freedom from sin, evil, pain, illness, harm, selfishness or any temptations, thoughts or inclinations to commit wrong against ourselves, other or God, through a transformed life and becoming a new creation in Christ.

I would say God doesn’t get rid of natural evil now because He gave humans dominion over the earth. For now He allows human choices to play out with the consequences: good or bad, including the negative impact on the physical earth until time for the new heaven and earth.
I suppose life on earth now is meant to be educational or a wake-up call.

 

[Koldo]

By eternal freedom I mean freedom from sin, evil, pain, illness, harm, selfishness or any temptations, thoughts or inclinations to commit wrong against ourselves, other or God, through a transformed life and becoming a new creation in Christ.

I would say God doesn’t get rid of natural evil now because He gave humans dominion over the earth. For now He allows human choices to play out with the consequences: good or bad, including the negative impact on the physical earth until time for the new heaven and earth.
I suppose life on earth now is meant to be educational or a wake-up call.

What's stopping God from achieving that right away? If nothing, what's the justification for not doing it right away?

 

[InChrist]

What's stopping God from achieving that right away? If nothing, what's the justification for not doing it right away?

When history is finished on this earth and the elements are dissolved, as the scriptures say, that’s it for human life here. I assume God is waiting so that many more millions and millions of people have the opportunity to live, learn, make choices and hopefully choose redemption and eternal life with God.

 

[Koldo]

When history is finished on this earth and the elements are dissolved, as the scriptures say, that’s it for human life here. I assume God is waiting so that many more millions and millions of people have the opportunity to live, learn, make choices and hopefully choose redemption and eternal life with God.

Why? Why would he be waiting?

 

[InChrist]

Why? Why would he be waiting?

More people. Humans are created to enjoy God’s love, beauty and creativity forever. Like I said He is waiting for many more to be born and have the opportunity to respond to His love and choose eternal life.

Have a good day. I have to go now.

 

[Koldo]

More people. Humans are created to enjoy God’s love, beauty and creativity forever. Like I said He is waiting for many more to be born and have the opportunity to respond to His love and choose eternal life.

Have a good day. I have to go now.

Do you mean people need to choose eternal life to be granted with the utmost well-being? Why?

See ya later.

 

[1213]

I mean..Right now, it is impossible for me to kill you, for example, at this very instant. I lack the power to do it, therefore it is not like I am able to choose to do this evil. But if you say I still have freedom, then not every kind of evil must necessarily be available to me. ...

Ok, even then you have the ability to choose evil, you are not just omnipotent and can’t do all evil you would want to do, still, in that case you would have chosen evil.

 

[1213]

...so apparently not having that ability hasn't diminished whatever you're calling "freedom"...

Yes, freedom doesn’t mean people are omnipotent. It just means people can make choices freely and also want freely whatever they want.

 

[Koldo]

Ok, even then you have the ability to choose evil, you are not just omnipotent and can’t do all evil you would want to do, still, in that case you would have chosen evil.

So we do agree that I can't do all evil for I am not powerful enough to do all evil. Which means there is a limit on what kinds of evil I can choose to do. But if you insist that I still possess freedom, regardless of this limitation, what is the exact limit on the choices I can make before it can be said I no longer possess this freedom?

Consider for instance an individual unable to punch someone to death, for he doesn't have arms and hands that would enable someone to punch others to death. This individual is unable to choose this evil.

From this, two possibilities arise:

1) If this individual doesn't possess freedom because he is unable to punch others to death, then why did God allow this happen? Why is there an individual lacking in freedom? His existence would contradict God's existence.

2) However, If he does possess freedom, then being able to punch others to death is not necessary to retain freedom, in which case, why isn't it impossible to punch others to death for the rest of us too?

 

[viole]

Maybe, I can’t specifically answer that because I am not God. I don’t know everything. I don’t know if the child killed would have done something truly beneficial for the world or even their own family or community. Nevertheless, I would say the world is made worse because every life has intrinsic value and the loss of even one likely leaves a void we can’t fully fathom.
Just my thoughts. I realize you have your own views.

Well, you are not God, but you should know what God entails.
So, if I left the world worse, why do you think that children dying of cancer, and such, do not make the world worse too?

Forget my views. They see your belief in God as rational as a belief in Mother Goose.

But I give you the benefit of the doubt, and that is why I ask things.

Ciao

- viole

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, freedom doesn’t mean people are omnipotent. It just means people can make choices freely and also want freely whatever they want.

So then "freedom" has absolutely nothing to do with why evil acts happen, since not actually being able to commit acts doesn't limit your "freedom."

 

[InChrist]

Do you mean people need to choose eternal life to be granted with the utmost well-being? Why?

See ya later.

The consequence of sin is death and all people have sinned. So people need to repent of sin and receive forgiveness and eternal life in Jesus Christ, the Savior.

 

[InChrist]

Well, you are not God, but you should know what God entails.
So, if I left the world worse, why do you think that children dying of cancer, and such, do not make the world worse too?

Forget my views. They see your belief in God as rational as a belief in Mother Goose.

But I give you the benefit of the doubt, and that is why I ask things.

Ciao

- viole

How do you know children with cancer leave the world worse? How do you know in what positive ways their lives though short, impact others? I heard some very inspiring stories about children who have died young and many knew God much more sincerely and deeply than adults.
Anyway, your questions are worthwhile and thought provoking. I appreciate them.

Have a good night.

Anyway,

 

[Koldo]

The consequence of sin is death and all people have sinned. So people need to repent of sin and receive forgiveness and eternal life in Jesus Christ, the Savior.

Why does the consequence of sin has to be death? Is God incapable of changing this?