A Return to the Argument from Evil (by Epicurus)

[InChrist]

That is only your interpretation and runs contrary to the Old Testament.

Like I said, you are free to have your perspective, but the scriptures are not written for anyone to apply their own interpretation, but as Inspired by the Holy Spirit and read as God intended.
...knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
2 Peter 1: 20-21

The OT is clear there is only ONE who made heaven and earth. All other “gods” worshiped by people are idols; false gods invented by people.

You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.
I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
Isaiah 43:10-11

Isaiah 44:6-8

Isaiah 45:5-6; 14, 18, 21-22

Isaiah 46:9


For all the gods of the peoples are idols, But the Lord made the heavens.
1 Chronicles 16:26

 

[Subduction Zone]

Like I said, you are free to have your perspective, but the scriptures are not written for anyone to apply their own interpretation, but as Inspired by the Holy Spirit and read as God intended.
...knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
2 Peter 1: 20-21

The OT is clear there is only ONE who made heaven and earth. All other “gods” worshiped by people are idols; false gods invented by people.

You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.
I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
Isaiah 43:10-11

Isaiah 44:6-8

Isaiah 45:5-6; 14, 18, 21-22

Isaiah 46:9


For all the gods of the peoples are idols, But the Lord made the heavens.
1 Chronicles 16:26

No, you are just using claims of the "Holy Spirit". One does not need that to interpret the Bible. In fact such a false belief gets in the way since one looks at the clear words of the Bible and thinks "Well God could not have meant that" and then one puts one's own spin on it.

 

[InChrist]

If that's the issue, then why make it possible to believe in falsehoods? It is not like someone can willfully believe in them.

If someone has no freedom of thought to believe falsehoods, how are they free to believe truth or anything for that matter? Are you thinking God should control and program human minds? Is that freedom?
Is looks to me like people do willfully choose to believe or not believe the things they do.

What makes a sin to be a sin if not God's sovereignty? Why did God define anything as a sin?

Why shouldn’t a Creator God define sin to show care for His creation. After all, the Creator would know what is best or harmful. Any manufacturer includes instructions with their product defining proper use and warnings about misuse or things which cause damage.

 

[InChrist]

No, you are just using claims of the "Holy Spirit". One does not need that to interpret the Bible. In fact such a false belief gets in the way since one looks at the clear words of the Bible and thinks "Well God could not have meant that" and then one puts one's own spin on it.

Well, you’re wrong. That’s the view of the Bible, as well as my perspective and my experience. I couldn’t make sense of the Bible, nor rightly divide the word ( 2 Timothy 2:15), until I was saved by Christ, born anew in Christ and in dwelt by the Holy Spirit. Until one’s life is transformed in Christ it is impossible to correctly read or understand the scriptures, beyond the basic gospel message that we are all sinners who need a Savior, who is Jesus Christ... which is simple and clear enough for a child or anyone to understand.

No doubt many do put their own spin on the Bible, but when someone submits their reading and thoughts to Christ and His Word, the scriptures interpret themselves and correct wrong ideas.

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them,because they are spiritually discerned.”
1 Corinthians 2:14

 

[InChrist]

No, you are just using claims of the "Holy Spirit". One does not need that to interpret the Bible. In fact such a false belief gets in the way since one looks at the clear words of the Bible and thinks "Well God could not have meant that" and then one puts one's own spin on it.

Besides, if you can’t read statements like these, nor comprehend their clear intended meaning and message... something is wrong with your reading/ comprehension skills or you may be the one trying to put another spin on it.

You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.
I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
Isaiah 43:10-11


For all the gods of the peoples areidols, But the Lord made the heavens.
1 Chronicles 16:26

 

[Koldo]

If someone has no freedom of thought to believe falsehoods, how are they free to believe truth or anything for that matter? Are you thinking God should control and program human minds? Is that freedom?
Is looks to me like people do willfully choose to believe or not believe the things they do.

How exactly does someone willingly choose to believe in a falsehood? Hows does that work?

To believe in a falsehood is to believe that it is truth. If you already know it is a falsehood, this precludes choosing to believe it is true.

To believe in a falsehood is to mistake it for truth. How is it a matter of freedom to be able to mistake a falsehood for truth?

Why shouldn’t a Creator God define sin to show care for His creation. After all, the Creator would know what is best or harmful. Any manufacturer includes instructions with their product defining proper use and warnings about misuse or things which cause damage.

Does he know what is best and harmful or does he decree what is best and harmful?

 

[InChrist]

How exactly does someone willingly choose to believe in a falsehood? Hows does that work?

To believe in a falsehood is to believe that it is truth. If you already know it is a falsehood, this precludes choosing to believe it is true.

To believe in a falsehood is to mistake it for truth. How is it a matter of freedom to be able to mistake a falsehood for truth?




Does he know what is best and harmful or does he decree what is best and harmful?

I don’t remember saying that people believe falsehoods knowing they are believing something false. If that’s what you thought I meant, then I’m sorry for being unclear.
I meant people believe falsehoods because they are deceived or being lied to. There are many things people believe only to find out later they were mistaken, lied to, or otherwise in error.


I am of the view God knows what is harmful and has provided that information and His wisdom for our well-being. No, I doubt think He randomly decrees what is or isn’t right or wrong, harmful or not.

 

[Koldo]

I don’t remember saying that people believe falsehoods knowing they are believing something false. If that’s what you thought I meant, then I’m sorry for being unclear.
I meant people believe falsehoods because they are deceived or being lied to. There are many things people believe only to find out later they were mistaken, lied to, or otherwise in error.

I have addressed this at that quote: How is it a matter of freedom to be able to mistake a falsehood for truth?

I am of the view God knows what is harmful and has provided that information and His wisdom for our well-being. No, I doubt think He randomly decrees what is or isn’t right or wrong, harmful or not.

Oh, I see. You don't think God has sovereignty over what is good and evil. I will keep this in mind.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, you’re wrong. That’s the view of the Bible, as well as my perspective and my experience. I couldn’t make sense of the Bible, nor rightly divide the word ( 2 Timothy 2:15), until I was saved by Christ, born anew in Christ and in dwelt by the Holy Spirit. Until one’s life is transformed in Christ it is impossible to correctly read or understand the scriptures, beyond the basic gospel message that we are all sinners who need a Savior, who is Jesus Christ... which is simple and clear enough for a child or anyone to understand.

No doubt many do put their own spin on the Bible, but when someone submits their reading and thoughts to Christ and His Word, the scriptures interpret themselves and correct wrong ideas.

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them,because they are spiritually discerned.”
1 Corinthians 2:14

Well your wrong (see how easy that is?). The Bible simply supports those that abuse it in God's name. One does not need to believe the myths to understand what the Bible says. In fact if one does not believe the myths of the Bible one's interpretation is likely to be more accurate since one's interpretation need not rely on one's own religion views which can cause a person to totally distort what the Bible actually says.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Besides, if you can’t read statements like these, nor comprehend their clear intended meaning and message... something is wrong with your reading/ comprehension skills or you may be the one trying to put another spin on it.

You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.
I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
Isaiah 43:10-11


For all the gods of the peoples areidols, But the Lord made the heavens.
1 Chronicles 16:26

No, I can understand them since I understand the motivation of writing them that way. You are less likely to understand them since you will make the error of assuming a deeper meaning that does not really exist.

 

[InChrist]

I have addressed this at that quote: How is it a matter of freedom to be able to mistake a falsehood for truth?



Oh, I see. You don't think God has sovereignty over what is good and evil. I will keep this in mind.

What exactly do you mean by “sovereignty over good and evil “?

 

[Koldo]

What exactly do you mean by “sovereignty over good and evil “?

As in 'something is right because God commands it' rather than 'God commands something because those things are right'.

 

[InChrist]

Well your wrong (see how easy that is?). The Bible simply supports those that abuse it in God's name. One does not need to believe the myths to understand what the Bible says. In fact if one does not believe the myths of the Bible one's interpretation is likely to be more accurate since one's interpretation need not rely on one's own religion views which can cause a person to totally distort what the Bible actually says.

The Bible does not read as, nor have the elements of mythology. For the most part the scriptures are historical narrative, which make a point to include detailed names, places and events, as well as allegory teaching spiritual truths, and poetry.
Those who misuse or abuse the scriptures in God’s name will certainly be held accountable.
You may try learning proper biblical hermeneutics.


“The most important law of biblical hermeneutics is that the Bible should be interpreted literally. We are to understand the Bible in its normal or plain meaning, unless the passage is obviously intended to be symbolic or if figures of speech are employed. The Bible says what it means and means what it says. For example, when Jesus speaks of having fed “the five thousand” in Mark 8:19, the law of hermeneutics says we should understand five thousand literally—there was a crowd of hungry people that numbered five thousand who were fed with real bread and fish by a miracle-working Savior. Any attempt to “spiritualize” the number or to deny a literal miracle is to do injustice to the text and ignore the purpose of language, which is to communicate.”

What is biblical hermeneutics? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Bible does not read as, nor have the elements of mythology. For the most part the scriptures are historical narrative, which make a point to include detailed names, places and events, as well as allegory teaching spiritual truths, and poetry.
Those who misuse or abuse the scriptures in God’s name will certainly be held accountable.
You may try learning proper biblical hermeneutics.


“The most important law of biblical hermeneutics is that the Bible should be interpreted literally. We are to understand the Bible in its normal or plain meaning, unless the passage is obviously intended to be symbolic or if figures of speech are employed. The Bible says what it means and means what it says. For example, when Jesus speaks of having fed “the five thousand” in Mark 8:19, the law of hermeneutics says we should understand five thousand literally—there was a crowd of hungry people that numbered five thousand who were fed with real bread and fish by a miracle-working Savior. Any attempt to “spiritualize” the number or to deny a literal miracle is to do injustice to the text and ignore the purpose of language, which is to communicate.”

What is biblical hermeneutics? | GotQuestions.org

Sorry, but we can show that much of it is mythology so your claim simply does not work.

 

[InChrist]

As in 'something is right because God commands it' rather than 'God commands something because those things are right'.

Okay, thanks for clarifying. I’m not sure if you are using the word sovereignty correctly, but anyway, I think God commands are because He has the wisdom and knowledge concerning what is right, rather than just making up random commands for right or wrong.

 

[InChrist]

No, I can understand them since I understand the motivation of writing them that way. You are less likely to understand them since you will make the error of assuming a deeper meaning that does not really exist.

I normally don’t assume a deeper meaning. It depends on the text and the context, but it’s usually best to simply read and believe what the scriptures are obviously saying.

 

[InChrist]

Sorry, but we can show that much of it is mythology so your claim simply does not work.

Who is “we”?
I will always accept God’s word over those who claim the Bible is mythology.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Who is “we”?
I will always accept God’s word over those who claim the Bible is mythology.

Anyone that is not afraid to reason rationally can see that much of the Bible is myth. It is so obvious that your belief is a charge that your God is a liar since the evidence against some of the Bible stories is so strong that the only way that the evidence could get there is if God lied by planting false evidence. If God cannot lie there was no flood of Noah.

 

[InChrist]

Anyone that is not afraid to reason rationally can see that much of the Bible is myth. It is so obvious that your belief is a charge that your God is a liar since the evidence against some of the Bible stories is so strong that the only way that the evidence could get there is if God lied by planting false evidence. If God cannot lie there was no flood of Noah.

I disagree. Human reason can only go so far in understanding everything that an Infinite Being knows. It may very easily be that there is still evidence unknown to to human beings at this point in time for the accounts in the Bible you are dismissing as myths.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I disagree. Human reason can only go so far in understanding everything that an Infinite Being knows. It may very easily be that there is still evidence unknown to to human beings at this point in time for the accounts in the Bible you are dismissing as myths.

Ah ha. I am sorry, but the evidence is endless. We do not need to understand everything to know that there was no flood. You are making a common creationist error of thinking that because we do not everything that does not mean that we do not know something. The Bible is clearly mythological. If you want to claim otherwise the burden of proof is upon you. It really is not upon me to prove that it is not. And I can provide endless evidence that it is mythological. I doubt if you can provide any reliable evidence that it is not mythological.