A Universe from Nothing?

[godnotgod]

Then it's useless since we can't verify any of it.

Ah, but it is completely verifiable, but you have to let go your toys first.

The fact that a Sun exists outside of Plato's Cave is perfectly verifiable. All that the other prisoners need do is to go see for themselves.

Mystics throughout the ages have verified the experience of Enlightenment independently of one another and in different times in history. Zen even claims an unbroken tradition of Transmission of the Light from Patriarch to Patriarch all the way down to the present, and this tradition is wordless and without doctrine. Once you set it down in scripture, you have lost direct contact with it's purity.

Just look at the many scientific theories that abound about the origins of the Universe amongst the top physicists, and none of them are conclusive. The mystic has nailed this question down centuries ago, and it does not change. Why should it?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I found a page with some nice Zen quotes:

"Zen is not some special state, it is our normal condition, silent, peaceful, awake, without agitation"
— Master Taisen Deshimaru

http://zenquotes.org/zen-quotes/

I can't see any references to "Cosmic Consciousness" and the big bang being an event in consciousness!

 

[godnotgod]

As I have repeatedly explained, sunyata also stands squarely in the way of your new-age beliefs like the universe being conscious and the big bang being an event in consciousness. Sunyata means that consciousness also lacks inherent existence and only arises conditionally, so it cannot be the fundamental property of the universe as you claim. Your beliefs have much more in common with Hinduism than Buddhism.

One minute you are challenging the validity of sunyata, the next minute you are using it to support your claims, all the time not properly understanding what sunyata actually means. What a complete muddle you are in.

I do not agree with your interpretation of the Heart Sutra and of Sunyata.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Mystics throughout the ages have verified the experience of Enlightenment independently of one another and in different times in history.

It's a shame that none of them can agree what it actually entails! Just look at the plurality and diversity of the Dharmic traditions for example, they all have different ideas - Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism and so on.

 

[godnotgod]

I found a page with some nice Zen quotes:

"Zen is not some special state, it is our normal condition, silent, peaceful, awake, without agitation"
— Master Taisen Deshimaru

http://zenquotes.org/zen-quotes/

I can't see any references to "Cosmic Consciousness" and the big bang being an event in consciousness!

So what?

 

[godnotgod]

It's a shame that none of them can agree what it actually entails! Just look at the plurality and diversity of the Dharmic traditions for example, they all have different ideas - Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism and so on.

Realization is not about ideas about Reality; it is the Realization of Reality itself.

It has been said that, at the beginning, monks will not see the same reality, but after a long period of time, when their opinions and ideas drop away, they will indeed see the same Reality. Why wouldn't they?

 

[ak.yonathan]

Mystics throughout the ages have verified the experience of Enlightenment independently of one another and in different times in history. Zen even claims an unbroken tradition of Transmission of the Light from Patriarch to Patriarch all the way down to the present, and this tradition is wordless and without doctrine. Once you set it down in scripture, you have lost direct contact with it's purity.

Really? I thought that in Buddhism enlightenment is a personal experience. Sure, in Mahayana Buddhism others can help you in achieving it, but you still have to experience it for yourself. What's the use of this Transmission of the Light, then?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I do not agree with your interpretation of the Heart Sutra and of Sunyata.

You clearly don't understand them, that has been obvious for some time. I don't mind that, these are teachings which a lot of people struggle with. What I do mind is your stubborn refusal to learn.

As with everything else you think you know it all. You are only here to preach, not to listen or learn.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Reality

Your "Reality" is a new-age fiction.

 

[godnotgod]

Really? I thought that in Buddhism enlightenment is a personal experience. Sure, in Mahayana Buddhism others can help you in achieving it, but you still have to experience it for yourself. What's the use of this Transmission of the Light, then?

It is not a personal experience in the sense that it is an experience of the self; it is transcendent of self. It is 'the merging of the observer, the observed, and the entire process of observation into a single Reality', as Deepak Chopra explained.

re: Transmission of The Light:

http://the-wanderling.com/birds_way.html

 

[godnotgod]

You clearly don't understand them, that has been obvious for some time. I don't mind that, these are teachings which a lot of people struggle with. What I do mind is your stubborn refusal to learn.

As with everything else you think you know it all. You are only here to preach, not to listen or learn.

I have listened to all of you, but you want to try to understand intellectually that which cannot be so understood. While I respect science for what it can achieve, I am not blinded by what many think it can do.

You want to preach a doctrine about Sunyata to me regarding conditionality, but I see that the preacher himself does not see clearly beyond his own interpretation of the doctrine.

There is nothing to learn, but only that which must be unlearned.

Realization is not learning.

"Do not seek the truth; only cease to cherish opinions"
Third Zen Patriarch

 

[Rick O'Shez]

So what?

So all your new-age "Cosmic Consciousness" stuff is irrelevant from a Zen point of view.

 

[godnotgod]

I found a page with some nice Zen quotes:

"Zen is not some special state, it is our normal condition, silent, peaceful, awake, without agitation"
— Master Taisen Deshimaru

That is not Zen. It is the result of Zen.

Zen actually really is something special, as Bodhidharma himself stated:

A special transmission outside the scriptures;
No dependence on words and letters;
Direct pointing to the mind of man;
Seeing into one's nature and attaining Buddhahood.
Bodhidharma

http://www.amacord.com/taste/essays/zen.html

 

[godnotgod]

So all your new-age "Cosmic Consciousness" stuff is irrelevant from a Zen point of view.

Nothing is irrelevant from a Zen POV....and everything is as well.

 

[godnotgod]

Your "Reality" is a new-age fiction.

It might be if it were 'my' Reality, but it is not.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

You want to preach a doctrine about Sunyata to me regarding conditionality, but I see that the preacher himself does not see clearly beyond his own interpretation of the doctrine.

Sunyata IS conditionality. But understanding the "doctrine" correctly is only the first stage, it is then about direct observation and insight. That is why I explained earlier about closely observing the aggregates. As the Heart Sutra explains, it is the aggregates which are empty.

I]"Do not seek the truth; only cease to cherish opinions"[/I]
Third Zen Patriarch

That is some advice you are badly in need of.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Nothing is irrelevant from a Zen POV....and everything is as well.

I have talked to quite a lot of real Zennies, and I can assure you that all your new-age fluff like "Cosmic Consciousness" IS irrelevant. It is just a glob of foam on the Ganges.

 

[ak.yonathan]

There is nothing to learn, but only that which must be unlearned.

While there might be some merit to that statement, basically Buddhism disputes it. The Four Noble Truths state that suffering is a result of ignorance, so it would only be prudent to obviate it (ignorance).

 

[godnotgod]

Sunyata IS about conditionality. But understanding the "doctrine" correctly is only the first stage, it is then about direct observation and insight - that is why I explained earlier about closely observing the aggregates.

The thing you don't understand here is that the consciousness which has the insight is Uncreated and Unconditioned. Being so, it is not different from the world itself, as there are no distinctions separating it from phenomena. Hinduism says it even more exactly, which is that Brahman is the world, or Tat tvam asi; 'thou art That'.

 

[godnotgod]

I have talked to quite a lot of real Zennies, and I can assure you that all your new-age fluff IS irrelevant. It is just a glob of foam on the Ganges.

You say a lot of s**t like that, which is just a glob of s**t on the Ganges.

You don't really understand what I mean when I say that everything and nothing are irrelevant from a Zen POV, do you?