gnostic
The Lost One
As far as I can tell, it was Idav who brought up "sun dial", not Christine.
So you are confusing who wrote what, ben.
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A Universe from Nothing?
- Thread starter Tomorrows_Child
- Start date
So you are confusing who wrote what, ben.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Where in your link in your post #4287 does it say that still mind meditation is a not a religious practice. That is the point, the link in your later post is irrelevant unless it can back up your claim...stop wasting time!
Look, as an atheist it is natural you know little of religion, still mind meditation is not exclusive to Chan or Buddhism, it is a part of the Hindu traditions of India.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
No problem, I appreciate your due diligence.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Nothing can be described as "no-thing" because it is formless, in that it has no form. Something comes from no-thing because nothingness is the infinite potential of the unmanifested reality.
Yay!
Having said that, I would say that there is no such 'something' that comes from anything. To think so is an illusion. Nothing has ever come from anything. It only appears to have done so. This 'material' world is maya, and now even Quantum Physics is pointing in that direction, as all 'particles' in the universe as now understood to be standing waves, created by energy fluctuations in their respective fields. So the only true Reality is the Source of No-Thing-Ness from which this illusion we call 'The Universe' is being projected. The compelling thing about it is that it is The Source that is playing itself as The Universe, in all its myriad forms, simultaneously.
"The Universe is The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"
Vivekenanda
godnotgod
Thou art That
Some folks practice meditation without any religious intent in mind, solely as a means of mind and body health. Others, like ben d, practice it as a means of spiritual transcendence, or divine union (yoga) in which case it is most certainly a religious practice. 'Religion' can be a practice, or a dogma, depending on how it is being defined. Practice is not a belief, since the mind is stilled, and it is the mind which formulates beliefs. As stated in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali:
"Yoga (ie 'divine union') is the cessation of all of the activities of the mind"
In this kind of meditative practice, the subject/object split is merged, and only seeing via pure consciousness is present. It is on an altogether different level than mere thinking and beliefs. One is now at one with The Universe itself, in the state of non-duality.
"Yoga (ie 'divine union') is the cessation of all of the activities of the mind"
In this kind of meditative practice, the subject/object split is merged, and only seeing via pure consciousness is present. It is on an altogether different level than mere thinking and beliefs. One is now at one with The Universe itself, in the state of non-duality.
gnostic
The Lost One
I can agree with the first part of your post about meditation can be used without religious "intent", however...
...sorry, but I have to disagree with the above quote.
Religious practices are still used on the basis of religious belief. You cannot untie the two, because they would go hand-in hand.
So, if the meditation or stilling the mind have "religious intent", then that would mean the believer is finding application for his religious belief.
...sorry, but I have to disagree with the above quote.
Religious practices are still used on the basis of religious belief. You cannot untie the two, because they would go hand-in hand.
So, if the meditation or stilling the mind have "religious intent", then that would mean the believer is finding application for his religious belief.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
A gold miner who believes there is gold to be found in them thar hills sets out find out if there is. Let's say he actually finds a motherlode, he no longer just believes it is true, he has proven it is true and belief is no long a factor.
It is the same with the religious practice of still mind meditation, in the beginning there may be a belief in the efficacy of such religious practice to realize the divine, but if and when the 'motherlode' is struck, there is no need of belief, one continues the religious practice of uniting with the divine reality to continue to 'grow', belief is not a factor.
godnotgod
Thou art That
No, gnostic. You are incorrect here. Certainly one can use religious beliefs and doctrine as a springboard to meditative states. But that is not what ben d is talking about. He is saying his meditation itself is a religious practice. You have to understand that in the mystical practices, the practice itself is the experience. He is telling us that his experience is transcendent, and that means transcendent of all dogma, beliefs, doctrines, and other conceptual understandings. This kind of meditation is the direct apprehension of Reality itself, with nothing in the way. The mind and its trappings have been stilled, and only seeing is present.
When we talk about 'pure consciousness', what we are referring to is simply that the consciousness is clear, without contamination from the thinking mind, and you well know that it is the mind which is the agent which formulates beliefs and doctrines.
You are confusing religion as it pertains to belief and dogma, with religion as it pertains to direct experience.
gnostic
The Lost One
Praying is also religious practice too.
Sorry, but a person who find motherlode of gold, the gold can be seen by anyone if it is made public; the gold can be measured and weighed, and such. He can keep it stored or sell it to the highest bidder.
But it is not the same thing with you meditating and you have claimed that you have "still" your mind and reached transcendent state. But the question is, can anyone independently collaborate with your claims?
You may believe that your practice in meditation have reached transcendence, but no one can verify that you have, which make it a matter of belief.
Saying that it is not part of religious belief is like saying an apple is beef.
In religion, practice doesn't negate belief.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Gnostic, it was not a literal narrative, but an analogy meant to show how belief in realizing a goal is dropped when the goal has been realized, in that sense it works.
As to the question of verifying the state of samadhi, transcendence, etc., of course it has been realized by untold numbers of seekers, do some research on it, don't take my word for it. However you will never verify the state of samadhi personally unless you engage in an appropriate religious practice. It matters not that you do not accept the reality, it is only for those who seek it.
gnostic
The Lost One
I understand it was only analogy, and I understand what you were getting at.
But we have issues with each other's concept of what's real and what's not real.
Your analogy of a person of having struck gold, is true about his own experience, and I can understand it has got from belief to reality. But if he doesn't hide that he has the gold, then other people will see the gold too, thereby sharing the knowledge that the gold is real.
But that's not same with meditation to reach transcendent state of being, because I and other people cannot witness your experiences.
How do we tell you have higher state of being? How do we know that what you have experienced, is no more than an illusion, your maya?
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Well gnostic, we have reached the point that I can't elucidate further as it will only be a finger pointing at the moon stuff and you want to know if the moon really exists.
gnostic
The Lost One
I don't need to know, because I already know that the moon exists...
...because I've been, and I've done that.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
I don't need to know, because I already know that the moon exists...
...because I've been, and I've done that.
Go forth my son, beware of the constraints of belief and disbelief...
Accepted
I said it was a practice, ie,both religious and non religious, and provided a link (you claimed irrelevant) to validate my claim.
Hyou are the one claiming it is a religious practice at the expense of those non religious who do practice it
Go away urinating with your bs of my knowledge of religion, you have no clue to my history and experience with religion
gnostic
The Lost One
If everyone in this thread went on excursion to a cattle farm, and there are exactly 100 adult cows, then if each of us were to count it, we should all get a total of hundred cows.
To me, that's reality.
But if you say there are 50 of us in this thread, and you informed us that you have reached transcendent state through meditation, just how many of us will accept your claim?
One? Two? A dozen?
And how many of those who do accept your claim, have also reach that state of being?
To me, that's not reality.
It would only be reality if each of us can reach that state, regardless if we believe or not.
Of course, you can claim that we are all blinded by maya, but such a claim would be illogical.
To me, that's reality.
But if you say there are 50 of us in this thread, and you informed us that you have reached transcendent state through meditation, just how many of us will accept your claim?
One? Two? A dozen?
And how many of those who do accept your claim, have also reach that state of being?
To me, that's not reality.
It would only be reality if each of us can reach that state, regardless if we believe or not.
Of course, you can claim that we are all blinded by maya, but such a claim would be illogical.
godnotgod
Thou art That
When you fall into a mountain lake, how do you know that the water is cold?
You can always go see for yourself, just as the sceptical prisoners in Plato's Cave can. But if you insist on bringing your baggage, best not go at all.
Ultimately, there is no demand, urgency, or necessity that you take the time to go look. It is like a refreshing mountain spring; you can stop to partake of its waters, or just move on. It makes no difference to the bubbling brook. It's OK either way.
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godnotgod
Thou art That
Does everyone who dream-sleeps eventually awaken?
When you are asleep, dreaming, you do not know of the awakened state. But upon awakening, it becomes perfectly clear that you had been dreaming.