A Universe from Nothing?

[Ben Dhyan]

I came across it often enough on topix, it always backfired in the end because they always made an error of some sort themselves at a later date. Funny how many people jumped on that error, and never let them forget.

Its not the first time ben d has tried it on, it wont be the last.

Yes, it is usually a distraction, a sure sign they have no substance in their claims.

No distraction Christine, we are closing in on the error.....#4679 https://www.religiousforums.com/members/ben-d.13860/

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I would cling to the notion of an actual person
Someone capable of pronouncement.......I AM!.....

Someone had to be first

Pantheistically, God is of Spirit and Matter, the two perceptual aspects of the One God.

 

[Thief]

Pantheistically, God is of Spirit and Matter, the two perceptual aspects of the One God.

but I don't agree....

God is alive
substance is dead

can God create dead stuff?
yes

why?......so the difference of Spirit and creation can be obvious

are you attempting to ignore the obvious?
or do you pray to any object before you?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

but I don't agree....

God is alive
substance is dead

can God create dead stuff?
yes

why?......so the difference of Spirit and creation can be obvious

are you attempting to ignore the obvious?
or do you pray to any object before you?

Your body is substance, and you say it is dead?
The electrons dance due to the same dark energy that vivifies a human being, and you say it is dead?

 

[Thief]

Your body is substance, and you say it is dead?
The electrons dance due to the same dark energy that vivifies a human being, and you say it is dead?

I am a ghost in a shell

as soon as I depart...the body fails

(and I hope that spirit CANNOT be contained in a dead shell.....the grave awaits)

 

[gnostic]

You are mistaken, a personal experience is not invalidated because it is not some physical substance, if others can replicate the experience, then it becomes a part of the common knowledge of the culture. That some people have not or do not want a particular experience is not evidence that the experience is not real. The Dharmic traditions of India that have spread earlier through most of Asia and later throughout the whole world has allowed hundreds of thousands of devotees, if not millions, to realize the bliss associated with a still mind over the millennia.

What you cannot seem to fathom is that evidence required verification from other EVIDENCES, in order it to be fact.

Personal experiences are highly unreliable. And just because you have followers of the same religion, believing in meditation and transcendence, doesn't mean much because they are bound to be biased, since they followed the same religion as you.

If outsiders, like me, cannot independently have the same experience as you, then it is all based on your believe in your own religion.

If you remember my cattle farm example, you can have 5 inspectors, each one with different belief.

For example, you can have a Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist and an atheist. And each one will independently count exactly 100 cows, regardless of their religious belief or lack of one.

With science, any person employed as a researcher or lab tech, have to do his work, without involving his theism and atheism, or whatever -ism he or she may personally follow.

Any testing or experiments done, will have to done from scratch, without considering previous test result of previous experiments, or hope that future experiments will confirm your premise or hypothesis.

In murder investigation, homicide detectives will interact with possible witnesses, and explore the motive of a killer. Forensic specialists don't interview witnesses or suspects, they don't profile for possible motive, because it is not their jobs. Forensic lab techs would process the evidences, not psychoanalyse anyone or find out who's telling the truth and who's telling lies. So a murder investigation explore the incident from two different fronts, one is more objective than the others.

It doesn't matters if the suspects or witnesses are telling truth or not, because each testimony is very subjective.

And you are not being objective on the matter, since you already have invested interest in your religion.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I am a ghost in a shell

as soon as I depart...the body fails

(and I hope that spirit CANNOT be contained in a dead shell.....the grave awaits)

Matter is made of dark energy, because it is in the form of spherical standing waves of elemental particles does not make it absolutely dead, all is formed of the same underlying divine oneness...dark energy.

God sleeps in the rock,
Dreams in the plant,
Stirs in the animal,
And Awakens in Man. - Al Arabi

 

[Ben Dhyan]

What you cannot seem to fathom is that evidence required verification from other EVIDENCES, in order it to be fact.

Personal experiences are highly unreliable. And just because you have followers of the same religion, believing in meditation and transcendence, doesn't mean much because they are bound to be biased, since they followed the same religion as you.

If outsiders, like me, cannot independently have the same experience as you, then it is all based on your believe in your own religion.

If you remember my cattle farm example, you can have 5 inspectors, each one with different belief.

For example, you can have a Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist and an atheist. And each one will independently count exactly 100 cows, regardless of their religious belief or lack of one.

With science, any person employed as a researcher or lab tech, have to do his work, without involving his theism and atheism, or whatever -ism he or she may personally follow.

Any testing or experiments done, will have to done from scratch, without considering previous test result of previous experiments, or hope that future experiments will confirm your premise or hypothesis.

In murder investigation, homicide detectives will interact with possible witnesses, and explore the motive of a killer. Forensic specialists don't interview witnesses or suspects, they don't profile for possible motive, because it is not their jobs. Forensic lab techs would process the evidences, not psychoanalyse anyone or find out who's telling the truth and who's telling lies. So a murder investigation explore the incident from two different fronts, one is more objective than the others.

It doesn't matters if the suspects or witnesses are telling truth or not, because each testimony is very subjective.

And you are not being objective on the matter, since you already have invested interest in your religion.

You have some weird beliefs gnostic, religion is not science, I have all the religious evidence I need to know that still mind meditation leads to a state of divine bliss, it has nothing to do with physical objective science.

 

[gnostic]

You have some weird beliefs gnostic, religion is not science, I have all the religious evidence I need to know that still mind meditation leads to a state of divine bliss, it has nothing to do with physical objective science.

But it is not really evidences, because it is relying on your subjective personal testimony. In another word is based on personal belief.

Belief are not considered evidence.

You keep saying it is religious practice, not a "religious belief", when that's really religious practice is.

If anyone is playing with words, it is you, Ben.

People frequently pray, which is a religious practice, and that too is based on religious belief.

If you don't want me to argue with you, then don't call what you believe in as "evidence". And stop saying religious practice "isn't religious belief".

 

[Ben Dhyan]

But it is not really evidences, because it is relying on your subjective personal testimony. In another word is based on personal belief.

Belief are not considered evidence.

You keep saying it is religious practice, not a "religious belief", when that's really religious practice is.

If anyone is playing with words, Ben.

People frequently pray, which is a religious practice, and that too is based on religious belief.

If you don't want me to argue with you, then don't call what you believe in as "evidence". And stop saying religious practice "isn't religious belief".

It has nothing to do with personal testimony, the reality represented by 'divine bliss' is non verbal, there is nothing that can be said about the realization itself except that it is reality itself, not conceptual reality that you exclusively deal in as though it is the real thing.

Now as for your silly idea that the my religious still mind meditation is a religious belief is probably due to your poor english understanding.. A belief implies conceptualization, a still mind implies no conceptualization. My religious still mind meditation practice is not a belief, it is simply an exercise to realize divine bliss.

Do you think switching on the electric light is a belief? No, it's simply an exercise to realize the lighted room.

 

[gnostic]

It has nothing to do with personal testimony, the reality represented by 'divine bliss' is non verbal, there is nothing that can be said about the realization itself except that it is reality itself, not conceptual reality that you exclusively deal in as though it is the real thing.

Now as for your silly idea that the my religious still mind meditation is a religious belief is probably due to your poor english understanding.. A belief implies conceptualization, a still mind implies no conceptualization. My religious still mind meditation practice is not a belief, it is simply an exercise to realize divine bliss.

Do you think switching on the electric light is a belief? No, it's simply an exercise to realize the lighted room.

There you go again, bringing my English up again. You are st#### little ####.

Every time, you always fall back to attacking my English again. You're being petty, and trying to distract me once again.

And you are still playing word games with belief and practice.

A religion don't stop being religious belief, when you are involved with religious practice.

Forget it. I am tired of playing this game with you. Go suck a lemon.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

There you go again, bringing my English up again. You are st#### little ####.

Every time, you always fall back to attacking my English again. You're being petty, and trying to distract me once again.

And you are still playing word games with belief and practice.

A religion don't stop being religious belief, when you are involved with religious practice.

Forget it. I am tired of playing this game with you. Go suck a lemon.

What I am saying is that religious practice is not the same thing as religious belief, do you agree?

 

[YmirGF]

Where do you get the idea that religious practice is the same as a religious belief, they are different things. That's why I am questioning your understanding of the english language.

I've known dear @gnostic for many, many years (prior to our both coming to RF) and I have never had a problem discerning what he is meaning or trying to say. No, his English is not perfect, but neither is it for the vast majority of native English speakers. There is nothing wrong with his understanding. The problem is in your explanations.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I've known dear @gnostic for many, many years (prior to our both coming to RF) and I have never had a problem discerning what he is meaning or trying to say. No, his English is not perfect, but neither is it for the vast majority of native English speakers. There is nothing wrong with his understanding. The problem is in your explanations.

C'mon, he often ignores context and goes off on some tangent not germane to the essential point. He does not always understand nuanced and or subtle points. I understand why you may not have a problem with him as you do not generally get into the esoteric aspects of religion. and thus generally go along with the conventional objective view.

 

[Thief]

Matter is made of dark energy, because it is in the form of spherical standing waves of elemental particles does not make it absolutely dead, all is formed of the same underlying divine oneness...dark energy.

God sleeps in the rock,
Dreams in the plant,
Stirs in the animal,
And Awakens in Man. - Al Arabi

ok....but....I believe....

the Spirit moved upon the face of the waters

Genesis sounds like poetry
but I get it

in a state of existence....without form....and void....
darkness was upon the face of the deep

the stirring of God ....stirred the 'waters'
and the pronouncement....I AM!
is simultaneous to ....Let there be light

I do not believe matter and energy are the same thing
if they were we would not have two separate words with different definition

there is a line drawn.....

 

[godnotgod]

I've known dear @gnostic for many, many years (prior to our both coming to RF) and I have never had a problem discerning what he is meaning or trying to say. No, his English is not perfect, but neither is it for the vast majority of native English speakers. There is nothing wrong with his understanding. The problem is in your explanations.

Well, you are not paying attention. I personally like gnostic as well, but have corrected him at least twice on basic misunderstandings between us. He misconstrues meanings, and I believe the language barrier is responsible for that. So far, he has not responded to my correcting his recent errors, but has chosen instead to ignore them.

 

[YmirGF]

Well, you are not paying attention. I personally like gnostic as well, but have corrected him at least twice on basic misunderstandings between us. He misconstrues meanings, and I believe the language barrier is responsible for that. So far, he has not responded to my correcting his recent errors, but has chosen instead to ignore them.

Probably in much the same way that I have ignored your inane "corrections".

 

[YmirGF]

C'mon, he often ignores context and goes off on some tangent not germane to the essential point. He does not always understand nuanced and or subtle points. I understand why you may not have a problem with him as you do not generally get into the esoteric aspects of religion. and thus generally go along with the conventional objective view.

You, yourself, just recently said something to the effect that reality cannot be described so why are you descriptions of it (the alleged divinity thingy) more valid than gnostic's understanding of what you are babbling about? If our perceptions of reality are illusory or not real why are your perceptions of "Reality" any more accurate?

 

[`mud]

I like to believe that the singularity is the only entity voiding the thinking of any and all `voids`.
There is no `nothingness` !

 

[ChristineM]

You think it is a thing you eat. It is just an idea in your mind, a 'superposition of possibilities'.
Are you understanding the Quantum Physics meaning of this, or not?

How do you know you are not just dreaming of eating a sandwich?

This is not a pipe.

"Space" is just an idea in your mind you call 'the dimensions of height, width, and depth".

What you call 'space' is actually consciousness; but it is not your personal consciousness; it is the consciousness of The Universe itself.

Nope, definitely a physical thing i eat. Tis' easy to tell, if you only dream of eating, malnutrition and death sets in after a few weeks. Eating real food prevents malnutrition and often staves off death from malnutrition for 80, 90 or more years.

As for the rest of your hocus pocus, tell that to Neil Armstrong.