A Universe from Nothing?

[gnostic]

You don't get to determine for others what is fake, you only get to determine for your own little self what you think is fake. To think otherwise only shows you up as being fake!

Hey! I wasn't the one who brought up placebo effect. You did.

The placebo effect is meant to trick the patients into thinking they are taking real medicine. The belief in placebos are actually deception from medic and misguided of the patients. I think you already know that the placebos don't always work with patients.

Basically you are comparing to your religion to fake medical treatments.

Hence, the fake-ness of your religious belief and practice.

Would you like to take it back?

And by the way, what university or college is it that you received your civil engineering degree you tell us about?

I don't see how it is relevant, since my engineering course didn't cover cosmology, astrophysics, or anything that are theoretical. It didn't even cover Quantum Mechanics or General Relativity, because they don't apply to

But I went to Swinburne.

Since you have ask me, and I have answered. What were your college or university, and what are your qualifications?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Hey! I wasn't the one who brought up placebo effect. You did.

The placebo effect is meant to trick the patients into thinking they are taking real medicine. The belief in placebos are actually deception from medic and misguided of the patients. I think you already know that the placebos don't always work with patients.

Basically you are comparing to your religion to fake medical treatments.

Hence, the fake-ness of your religious belief and practice.

Would you like to take it back?



I don't see how it is relevant, since my engineering course didn't cover cosmology, astrophysics, or anything that are theoretical. It didn't even cover Quantum Mechanics or General Relativity, because they don't apply to

But I went to Swinburne.

Since you have ask me, and I have answered. What were your college or university, and what are your qualifications?

Haha...of course I know that placebos don't always work, if they did there would be no other medication than sugar coated tablets.

But it is the placebo that produces an effective result that can be verified by a medic I am interested in, such healing when it happens is real and not fake. Do you understand?

A mother who kisses her babies hurt hand to make it better can be said by materialists to be faking, but if it helps the baby cope, then such practice has utility.

As for your obvious state of unhappiness brought on by your fixation on my religious practice, my suggestion is for you do anger release and quiet mind meditation, hope it works.

Thank you, so you majored in civil, what is your actual degree called? I never attended university, I studied radio in the air force to technician level.

 

[godnotgod]

Yes, Brahman is the Universe, but it is not the Universe that is maya, it is the human mind's perception and conception of it as being constituted of many parts/ aspects that is maya, for the Universe is an indivisible One. The apparent aspects are real in the relative sense of what is perceived, but they are not real relative to absolute apprehension of Brahman, and hence are maya.

Interesting. I keep running into two versions of what constitutes maya; one, like yours, which says that maya is a false perception of the world, and another, which says that the world itself is maya. So I will stop here, for now.

More on this later....

 

[godnotgod]

Just because humans have intelligence and consciousness, it doesn't mean that the universe have intelligence and consciousness.

And since you use words like these mythological Cosmic Consciousness, Pure Consciousness and Brahman, then it is really up to you or ben d to show that these do existence with evidences.

All of these capitalized words are me

You cannot shift the burden of proof to someone else who don't believe in your myths.

We'll have to take this a bit at a time.

Firstly, "Pure Consciousness" simply means "clear"; without contamination or distortion, OK?

Secondly, when you identify what personal views are, what is the state of awareness with which you are doing so? Obviously, it cannot be a personal view.

And lastly, where lies the distinction/separation between you and The Universe?

 

[gnostic]

Thank you, so you majored in civil, what is your actual degree called?

Bachelor of civil engineering, 1st half of 1980s.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Bachelor of civil engineering, 1st half of 1980s.

Thank you, I had imagined you were younger than you are.

 

[godnotgod]

.... it is not the Universe that is maya, it is the human mind's perception and conception of it as being constituted of many parts/ aspects that is maya, for the Universe is an indivisible One.

from the POV that the material world is illusory:

[Some] Eastern religions (Hinduism, Sikhism, etc.) believe the material world is an illusion. They call this illusion Maya. Unlike true reality, which is changeless and eternal, Maya (illusion) is all that has a beginning and an end.

The path of spiritual enlightenment is based on the understanding of the Seven Pillars of Ancient Wisdom.

1) All things, organic or inorganic, from atom to galaxy, contain a living presence.
2) Every living presence resides within the body of a greater being.
3) Every being is made in the image of an ultimate greater being.
4) The vibration of every living presence is felt by every other living presence in our solar system.
5) Our solar system is constructed from energies which vibrate to seven levels.
6) Energy and matter are interchangeable. The material world is an illusion.
7) There is no death, only a change of state.

In a world where people exist in a temporary life spanning seven or eight decades, feverishly attempting to accumulate things, modern science appears to be catching up with ancient wisdom.

In 1982, physicist Alain Aspect (University of Paris) discovered that “under certain circumstances subatomic particles such as electrons are able to instantaneously communicate with each other regardless of the distance separating them.” It doesn’t matter if they are 10 feet or 10 billion miles apart, somehow each particle always seems to know what the other is doing. This may be one of the most important discoveries in history.

This revelation would confirm step 4 in the Seven Pillars of Ancient Wisdom, which would seem to lend credence to the previous three steps as well. The universe is basically a living entity made up of living entities.

Physicist David Bohm (University of London) believes Aspect’s findings suggest that material reality does not exist. Despite the apparent solidity of the universe, it’s actually a hologram (an illusion of a three-dimensional solid reality). Bohm contends that the subatomic particles are able to remain in contact with one another because their separateness is also an illusion.

If true, this would verify step 6 of the Seven Pillars of Ancient Wisdom that the material world is an illusion.

Illusion of Reality – The Reality Files

 

[Ben Dhyan]

from the POV that the material world is illusory:

[Some] Eastern religions (Hinduism, Sikhism, etc.) believe the material world is an illusion. They call this illusion Maya. Unlike true reality, which is changeless and eternal, Maya (illusion) is all that has a beginning and an end.

The path of spiritual enlightenment is based on the understanding of the Seven Pillars of Ancient Wisdom.

1) All things, organic or inorganic, from atom to galaxy, contain a living presence.
2) Every living presence resides within the body of a greater being.
3) Every being is made in the image of an ultimate greater being.
4) The vibration of every living presence is felt by every other living presence in our solar system.
5) Our solar system is constructed from energies which vibrate to seven levels.
6) Energy and matter are interchangeable. The material world is an illusion.
7) There is no death, only a change of state.

In a world where people exist in a temporary life spanning seven or eight decades, feverishly attempting to accumulate things, modern science appears to be catching up with ancient wisdom.

In 1982, physicist Alain Aspect (University of Paris) discovered that “under certain circumstances subatomic particles such as electrons are able to instantaneously communicate with each other regardless of the distance separating them.” It doesn’t matter if they are 10 feet or 10 billion miles apart, somehow each particle always seems to know what the other is doing. This may be one of the most important discoveries in history.

This revelation would confirm step 4 in the Seven Pillars of Ancient Wisdom, which would seem to lend credence to the previous three steps as well. The universe is basically a living entity made up of living entities.

Physicist David Bohm (University of London) believes Aspect’s findings suggest that material reality does not exist. Despite the apparent solidity of the universe, it’s actually a hologram (an illusion of a three-dimensional solid reality). Bohm contends that the subatomic particles are able to remain in contact with one another because their separateness is also an illusion.

If true, this would verify step 6 of the Seven Pillars of Ancient Wisdom that the material world is an illusion.

Illusion of Reality – The Reality Files

Yes, that's what is....the universe is one and is alive. And in the same way living cells in our living body can not know the person in whom they live, the conceptual mind of human beings can not know Brahman in whom they live, move, and have their being.

The obligatory cycles of evolution though eventually return the divine universal pilgrim to Self knowledge at the expense of ego self in union.

God sleeps in the rock,
Dreams in the plant,
Stirs in the animal,
And Awakens in Man. - Al Arabi

 

[godnotgod]

Yes, that's what is....the universe is one and is alive. And in the same way living cells in our living body can not know the person in whom they live, the conceptual mind of human beings can not know Brahman in whom they live, move, and have their being.

The obligatory cycles of evolution though eventually return the divine universal pilgrim to Self knowledge at the expense of ego self in union.

God sleeps in the rock,
Dreams in the plant,
Stirs in the animal,
And Awakens in Man. - Al Arabi

So, to be clear: is it your understanding that, because of the power of maya, the mind sees the world as materially real, but upon awakening, sees that what it only thought to be materially real is an illusion? Or am I way off here?

As I understand it, in the classic metaphor of the rope and the snake, the rope represents The Absolute,, and the snake, The Universe. The mind under the spell of maya thinks it sees a Universe that is changing all the time, when the reality is that The Universe is none other than The Unchanging Absolute playing itself as 'The Universe'. But like the 'snake' that never existed from the very beginning, neither does The Universe.

There never was a Bodhi tree
Nor bright mirror-stand
Originally, not a single thing exists
So where is the dust to cling?

Hui Neng, Sixth Zen Patriarch

 

[Ben Dhyan]

So, to be clear: is it your understanding that, because of the power of maya, the mind sees the world as materially real, but upon awakening, sees that what it only thought to be materially real is an illusion? Or am I way off here?

As I understand it, in the classic metaphor of the rope and the snake, the rope represents The Absolute,, and the snake, The Universe. The mind under the spell of maya thinks it sees a Universe that is changing all the time, when the reality is that The Universe is none other than The Unchanging Absolute playing itself as 'The Universe'. But like the 'snake' that never existed from the very beginning, neither does The Universe.

There never was a Bodhi tree
Nor bright mirror-stand
Originally, not a single thing exists
So where is the dust to cling?

Hui Neng, Sixth Zen Patriarch

The power of maya/illusion is derived from the conceptual mind thinking that it can know cosmic reality whose underlying nature is changeless. This underlying changeless nature can not be known by man, ever, however if the mind of man is still and not striving to understand, there it is. If there were not this great mystery wrt God, everyone would realize the truth now, but there is due process and one must first understand that the thinking mind will never realize God, for thought is meant for this worldly life's experience.

Glory and riches, prominence and position, fame and profit, personal appearance and style, beauty and cleverness, excitement and memory, hatred and desire, pleasure and anger, sadness and joy, rejection and acceptance, receiving and giving, knowledge and ability...when these conditions no longer disturb your body, heart, mind and soul, then you will be correct. Being correct, there is calmness. Being calm, there is clarity. Being clear, there is emptiness. Emptiness... the state of doing nothing in which everything gets done. - The Great Way

 

[Faithofchristian]

Well that's why God is called the Almighty God.Theres nothing impossible, for all things are possible with God.

For us our minds can not comprehend how can something be created from nothing.

For us as human beings, That when we die our decayed bodies return back to the dirt of the earth.As do everything, animals, birds, fish,trees, grass.everything returns back to dirt of the earth,where everything came from.
The Almighty God is not of the earth, As us humans beings are.
Therefore it is inconceivable for our infant Minds to comprehend how something can be made from nothing.
That's why we're human beings, and God is the Almighty God.
This is why it is written, My thought's are not your thoughts and My ways are not your ways, As the heaven is higher than the earth, So are my thoughts higher than your thoughts.

 

[godnotgod]

The power of maya/illusion is derived from the conceptual mind thinking that it can know cosmic reality whose underlying nature is changeless.

OK. So if the true nature of Reality is changeless, then this entire world does not actually exist; it is an illusion; maya, as it never came into existence to begin with, but only seems to have done so. So then, maya is both a misperception in the mind about the nature of the world, and about the nature of the world perse.

 

[godnotgod]

For us our minds can not comprehend how can something be created from nothing.

How do you reconcile your belief with Quantum Physics, which says that all particles in the universe are actually excitations in the fields within which they are detected? That what we thought to be a solid, material 'particle', is none other than a standing wave? And if that is the case, then nothing has been created from nothing, because all 'material reality' is not material reality; it would be virtual reality.

Quantum Physics now refers to 'material reality' as a 'superposition of possibilities'.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

OK. So if the true nature of Reality is changeless, then this entire world does not actually exist; it is an illusion; maya, as it never came into existence to begin with, but only seems to have done so. So then, maya is both a misperception in the mind about the nature of the world, and about the nature of the world perse.

I do not understand how you get from the nature of changelessness to that where change does not exist? The forces of good and evil, light and dark within the universe go on eternally, but the underlying nature of Brahman is changeless. Without complementary opposite forces balancing each other, there could not be a changeless nature underlying it.

Think of the changeless Tao, the ever changing 'dance' of complementary opposite forces of ying and yang are what maintains the changeless nature of the great Tao. Same principle as the good and evil forces of Isaiah 45:7.

Don't eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil...duality.

The Way is perfect like vast space where nothing is lacking and nothing is in excess.
Indeed, it is due to our choosing to accept or reject that we do not see the true nature of things.
Be serene in the oneness of things and such erroneous views will disappear by themselves. - Third Zen Patriarch [606AD]

 

[godnotgod]

I do not understand how you get from the nature of changelessness to that where change does not exist? The forces of good and evil, light and dark within the universe go on eternally, but the underlying nature of Brahman is changeless. Without complementary opposite forces balancing each other, there could not be a changeless nature underlying it.

Think of the changeless Tao, the ever changing 'dance' of complementary opposite forces of ying and yang are what maintains the changeless nature of the great Tao.

Brahman, The Absolute, is The Changeless. It is the only Reality. All else is maya. So that which appears as 'change' is non-existent. As you said, the underlying nature of Brahman is changeless. So as the Third Zen Patriarch noted: 'from the very beginning, not a single thing exists'

Looking at the question from the POV of the rope/snake metaphor, the rope (ie Brahman) only appears to be a moving 'snake' (ie The Universe). From the very beginning, there never was a snake. There was, and always is, only the rope.

Great Yin-Yang symbol!

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Brahman, The Absolute, is The Changeless. It is the only Reality. All else is maya. So that which appears as 'change' is non-existent. As you said, the underlying nature of Brahman is changeless. So as the Third Zen Patriarch noted: 'from the very beginning, not a single thing exists'

Looking at the question from the POV of the rope/snake metaphor, the rope (ie Brahman) only appears to be a moving 'snake' (ie The Universe). From the very beginning, there never was a snake. There was, and always is, only the rope.

Great Yin-Yang symbol!

Agreed, all else is maya, sooner or later 'I' must disappear to realize that which is beyond conception.

Please no one tell me that what was just said is a conceptualization! ..

 

[godnotgod]

Agreed, all else is maya, sooner or later 'I' must disappear to realize that which is beyond conception.
..

Yes, no agent of realization called 'I'; only Realization itself, without a realiz-er. It is the Realization that one is none other than The Absolute; that one has always been The Absolute, and never was anything else but.

Many try to say that they are conscious, while the Universe that spawned them is not. This view is the ultimate subject/object split, in which one attempts to make that which completely encompasses them inside and out, an object of observation, when they themselves are that very thing they are attempting to objectify.

They would do well to ask of themselves: 'Who is it that is making the observation?'

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes, no agent of realization called 'I'; only Realization itself, without a realiz-er. It is the Realization that one is none other than The Absolute; that one has always been The Absolute, and never was anything else but.

Many try to say that they are conscious, while the Universe that spawned them is not. This view is the ultimate subject/object split, in which one attempts to make that which completely encompasses them inside and out, an object of observation, when they themselves are that very thing they are attempting to objectify.

They would do well to ask of themselves: 'Who is it that is making the observation?'

Agreed.

The great irony that all seekers must face....nothing separate from God can enter into God, for God is an indivisible one with no outside or inside. God can only ever be revealed to God by God! ...

 

[Mister Silver]

Word salad, wonderful.

 

[godnotgod]

Agreed.

The great irony that all seekers must face....nothing separate from God can enter into God, for God is an indivisible one with no outside or inside. God can only ever be revealed to God by God! ...

"God became man, that man might become God"
St. Athanasius

"That which you are seeking is causing you to seek"
Cheri Huber, Zennist