A Universe from Nothing?

[Ben Dhyan]

It is the post i answered so your belligerent and ignorant ad hom has jus got you blocked

You mean to say you reported me to admin? If so at least I will be vindicated for your misunderstanding and not noting the distinction in my quote of your post #4796 and to which you replied "You are the one imposing materialism and thus branding all medics materialist." If you reread the post in question, you will see I said this about medics and the placebo effect...

"If they are a materialist, they will say no, if open minded they will say yes.

But a materialist's analysis is based on materialism which excludes the metaphysical and thus may be in error."

Now the last sentence refers to the materialist medics in the sentence above it, not the opened minded ones who say yes. It is pretty basic English!

 

[Regolith Based Lifeforms]

You mean to say you reported me to admin? If so at least I will be vindicated for your misunderstanding and not noting the distinction in my quote of your post #4796 and to which you replied "You are the one imposing materialism and thus branding all medics materialist." If you reread the post in question, you will see I said this about medics and the placebo effect...

"If they are a materialist, they will say no, if open minded they will say yes.

But a materialist's analysis is based on materialism which excludes the metaphysical and thus may be in error."

Now the last sentence refers to the materialist medics in the sentence above it, not the opened minded ones who say yes. It is pretty basic English!

Ya know, i'm a lousy typist, but my English is native Californian.
If i were to leave all my typos i wonder what you would say...
I can tell you i'm not just a lousy typist, i'm an F'n SPAZ at it.
Once i get it all cleaned up and post i still find errors to edit which i do immediately.
I wonder if anyone catches me editing when i'm doing it.
Do you edit too?
Have you ever been caught ...doing it?
(giggles)

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Ya know, i'm a lousy typist, but my English is native Californian.
If i were to leave all my typos i wonder what you would say...
I can tell you i'm not just a lousy typist, i'm an F'n SPAZ at it.
Once i get it all cleaned up and post i still find errors to edit which i do immediately.
I wonder if anyone catches me editing when i'm doing it.
Do you edit too?
Have you ever been caught ...doing it?
(giggles)

Hmmm.......riveting stuff. I will factor it in and remind you if you misunderstand what I say to you.

Do you believe in a Conscious Living Universe that is evolving and that has given rise to evolving biological life and which has consciously forged the imprint of itself as a living message and set of as yet unnoticed and undeciphered instructions, but also INCLUDING ALL of the known laws of physics and all mathematics into all things within it. Geometry is the first "revelation" of this consciousness. It is NOT intelligent Design, so much as a pure consciousness that is inconceivable and irrelevant to American Christianity, Fundamentalists and literal creationists of all religions and creeds?

 

[godnotgod]

So you see the true vacuum bubble comes into existence from the quantum fluctuations of the false vacuum energy....it does not come from nothing.

Nothing comes from nothing,

However, if the world is truly maya, then nothing really does 'come from' nothing, although if it IS maya, there is absolutely nothing that comes from anything. That something does, is a complete illusion. All such 'becoming' is illusory. That there has been any iota of change from the default state of The Changeless, is completely maya.

"The Universe is The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"
Vivekenanda

"Now Swami Vivekananda's statement that the Universe is the Absolute seen through the screen of time, space and causation allows us to get some interesting information, albeit in negative terms, about what he calls the Absolute. Since it is not in time, it cannot be changing.* Change takes place only in time. And since it is not in space, it must be undivided, because division and separation occur only in space. And since it is therefore one and undivided, it must also be infinite, since there is no "other" to limit it. Now "changeless," "infinite," and "undivided" are negative statements, but they will suffice. We can trace the physics of our Universe from these three negative statements. If we don't see the Absolute as what it is, we'll see it as something else. If we don't see it as changeless, infinite, and undivided, we'll see it as changing, finite, and divided, since in this case there is no other else. There is no other way to mistake the changeless except as changing. So we see a Universe which is changing all the time, made of minuscule particles, and divided into atoms."

The Equations of Maya

*That is to say: since The Absolute (aka The Universe) is eternal, it does not exist in Time, and therefore cannot be changing; it only appears to be doing so, and that is due to seeing it through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation.

Brahman is playing (not creating) itself via lila as The Universe, which is pure maya.

 

[gnostic]

Do you think the placebo effect is fantasy or real?

Ask a medic

Sorry, here it is again...

If they are a materialist, they will say no, if open minded they will say yes.

But a materialist's analysis is based on materialism which excludes the metaphysical and thus may be in error.

Sorry, here it is again...

If they are a materialist, they will say no, if open minded they will say yes.

But a materialist's analysis is based on materialism which excludes the metaphysical and thus may be in error.

You are the one imposing materialism and thus branding all medics materialist.

Analysis is based on evidence, not your opinion of other people

Sorry, but what does it mean by "open mind", ben?

I don't think a person who has "open mind" are tied to any specific philosophy or religion.

Open-mindedness is mostly about a person who not only receptive to new ideas, but it is really about recognising that other people can freely express their own idea and beliefs, and that other people's ideas or views have values.

Open mind is more about one person's attitude towards others' views or ideas or beliefs. About being able to accept or recognise their ideas, views or beliefs, not simply that of your own personal view or belief.

Having an open mind, is not about being open to your own view or belief, but about being open to other people's view or belief, as if they have as much value as your own.

But clearly you don't feel that way with anyone who disagree with you, with your opinion or your belief.

You attack other people's view, by branding them materialistic, whether that's true or not. Materialism, like atheism, communism are common derogatory terms to label any non-believer that disagree with them, even when these people are not materialists, atheists or communist.

As to the "placebo effect".

That's all about tricking patient into thinking what he is getting, is the real medicine or treatment, when in fact, the medicine or treatment is fake, having no other purpose than using the person's own personal belief to make the patient feel better.

The placebo has nothing to do with materialism or with metaphysics.

My question to you -

Are your religious belief and religious practice merely a "placebo effect" meant to make you "feel better" about yourself, but they are actually "fake" belief and "fake" practice?​

 

[godnotgod]

I don't think a person who has "open mind" are tied to any specific philosophy or religion.

Open-mindedness is mostly about a person who not only receptive to new ideas, but it is really about recognising that other people can freely express their own idea and beliefs, and that other people's ideas or views have values.

Open mind is more about one person's attitude towards others' views or ideas or beliefs. About being able to accept or recognise their ideas, views or beliefs, not simply that of your own personal view or belief.

Having an open mind, is not about being open to your own view or belief, but about being open to other people's view or belief, as if they have as much value as your own.

This pertains primarily to personal views; I have my personal view, and you have yours. If I also have an open mind, I allow that your personal view may have validity as I value my own. However, these are still personal views. Higher Consciousness is transcendent of all personal views. It is a view outside the confines of the self, and as such, does not see things through the filter of the personal 'I', but sees them instead as they actually are.

Having an open mind does not necessitate that you accept others views as correct; it just allows them to have voice in the open marketplace of ideas, whether true or not. The idea is that, via Logic and Reason, ie; critical thinking, personal views can be falsified and ultimately dismissed, and those having merit retained. Many times even currently accepted views can eventually be discarded or modified as new information makes itself known, such as when Quantum Physics shed its light on Newtonian Physics and even Relativity.

 

[Regolith Based Lifeforms]

Hmmm.......riveting stuff. I will factor it in and remind you if you misunderstand what I say to you.

Do you believe in a Conscious Living Universe that is evolving and that has given rise to evolving biological life and which has consciously forged the imprint of itself as a living message and set of as yet unnoticed and undeciphered instructions, but also INCLUDING ALL of the known laws of physics and all mathematics into all things within it. Geometry is the first "revelation" of this consciousness. It is NOT intelligent Design, so much as a pure consciousness that is inconceivable and irrelevant to American Christianity, Fundamentalists and literal creationists of all religions and creeds?

Well, since the caption was started out "I believe in" by the profile page i just went with it and finished it, but "believe" is not accurate. I've seen some weird stuff that i followed and researched a little further that causes me to SUSPECT this may be so.

 

[Regolith Based Lifeforms]

Here i had no choice but to put

Hmmm.......riveting stuff. I will factor it in and remind you if you misunderstand what I say to you.

Do you believe in a Conscious Living Universe that is evolving and that has given rise to evolving biological life and which has consciously forged the imprint of itself as a living message and set of as yet unnoticed and undeciphered instructions, but also INCLUDING ALL of the known laws of physics and all mathematics into all things within it. Geometry is the first "revelation" of this consciousness. It is NOT intelligent Design, so much as a pure consciousness that is inconceivable and irrelevant to American Christianity, Fundamentalists and literal creationists of all religions and creeds?

They used the word religion here on the profile page, but it's not accurate either. The Coincidence Phenomenon is not a religion.
It is a set of observations, research, tests and experiments i have used along with the scientific method to determine the validity of my initial observations and my subsequent claim that there is something there. There seems to indeed be something there. I can certainly say that life got a lot more enjoyable and easier after getting used to seeing it. It apparently is some form of information that operates as differentiated energy. Apparently, humans and other living things are communicating a lot more than we know. Sound like i'm talking about supernatural things? Nope. it's the physical science of the very small and low amplitude energies we have ignored because they are too to subtle. Forces and phenomena thought to be too small and insignificant to be of any importance or to have any appreciable effect on physical mass. Apparently, most of us are missing some pretty interesting and important information that is available in our environment to be used to our good and success.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Sorry, but what does it mean by "open mind", ben?

I don't think a person who has "open mind" are tied to any specific philosophy or religion.

Open-mindedness is mostly about a person who not only receptive to new ideas, but it is really about recognising that other people can freely express their own idea and beliefs, and that other people's ideas or views have values.

Open mind is more about one person's attitude towards others' views or ideas or beliefs. About being able to accept or recognise their ideas, views or beliefs, not simply that of your own personal view or belief.

Having an open mind, is not about being open to your own view or belief, but about being open to other people's view or belief, as if they have as much value as your own.

But clearly you don't feel that way with anyone who disagree with you, with your opinion or your belief.

You attack other people's view, by branding them materialistic, whether that's true or not. Materialism, like atheism, communism are common derogatory terms to label any non-believer that disagree with them, even when these people are not materialists, atheists or communist.

As to the "placebo effect".

That's all about tricking patient into thinking what he is getting, is the real medicine or treatment, when in fact, the medicine or treatment is fake, having no other purpose than using the person's own personal belief to make the patient feel better.

The placebo has nothing to do with materialism or with metaphysics.

My question to you -

Are your religious belief and religious practice merely a "placebo effect" meant to make you "feel better" about yourself, but they are actually "fake" belief and "fake" practice?​

Context gnostic, the discussion referred to medic's opinions about the placebo effect. Some more open minded medics believe it is an effective tool in treatment, other medics do not. I am saying those who do not believe in it have a more materialistic mindset, not that placebo per se has to do with materialism. Do physicians really believe in placebos?

Since the cause of the placebo effect is unknown to science, who is to say that metaphysics is not involved. https://investorintel.com/market-analysis/market-analysis-intel/business-placebo-effect-psychology-meets-metaphysics/

If the placebo effect is efficacious, then who cares if some call it fake?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Here i had no choice but to put

They used the word religion here on the profile page, but it's not accurate either. The Coincidence Phenomenon is not a religion.
It is a set of observations, research, tests and experiments i have used along with the scientific method to determine the validity of my initial observations and my subsequent claim that there is something there. There seems to indeed be something there. I can certainly say that life got a lot more enjoyable and easier after getting used to seeing it. It apparently is some form of information that operates as differentiated energy. Apparently, humans and other living things are communicating a lot more than we know. Sound like i'm talking about supernatural things? Nope. it's the physical science of the very small and low amplitude energies we have ignored because they are too to subtle. Forces and phenomena thought to be too small and insignificant to be of any importance or to have any appreciable effect on physical mass. Apparently, most of us are missing some pretty interesting and important information that is available in our environment to be used to our good and success.

I think you are on the right track, though there is a lot more to it. Do you accept metaphysics plays a part?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

However, if the world is truly maya, then nothing really does 'come from' nothing, although if it IS maya, there is absolutely nothing that comes from anything. That something does, is a complete illusion. All such 'becoming' is illusory. That there has been any iota of change from the default state of The Changeless, is completely maya.

"The Universe is The Absolute, as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"
Vivekenanda

"Now Swami Vivekananda's statement that the Universe is the Absolute seen through the screen of time, space and causation allows us to get some interesting information, albeit in negative terms, about what he calls the Absolute. Since it is not in time, it cannot be changing.* Change takes place only in time. And since it is not in space, it must be undivided, because division and separation occur only in space. And since it is therefore one and undivided, it must also be infinite, since there is no "other" to limit it. Now "changeless," "infinite," and "undivided" are negative statements, but they will suffice. We can trace the physics of our Universe from these three negative statements. If we don't see the Absolute as what it is, we'll see it as something else. If we don't see it as changeless, infinite, and undivided, we'll see it as changing, finite, and divided, since in this case there is no other else. There is no other way to mistake the changeless except as changing. So we see a Universe which is changing all the time, made of minuscule particles, and divided into atoms."

The Equations of Maya

*That is to say: since The Absolute (aka The Universe) is eternal, it does not exist in Time, and therefore cannot be changing; it only appears to be doing so, and that is due to seeing it through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation.

Brahman is playing (not creating) itself via lila as The Universe, which is pure maya.

So are you saying Brahman came from nothing or Brahman is nothing?

 

[Regolith Based Lifeforms]

I think you are on the right track, though there is a lot more to it. Do you accept metaphysics plays a part?

I think what we're calling metaphysics is nothing more than some of the very subtle energetic phenomena we're presently ignoring and mislabeling. Did you know there are metamaterials which are exotic materials created in labs that have unusual optical, electromagnetic and quantum properties without being metaphysical? We don't need to invent a separate physics or a separate nature to experience these things. I don't need a supernatural or a paranormal to get what an animal is communicating to me with just a look. (THAT doesn't happen often) it's ALL nature and physics. Now, is that some kind of "Life" or eternal continuum?
I don't know, but that coincidence phenomenon has appeared at many times to be directly associated with Biological Life.
Can biological life exist as a cohesive coherent living being without a body and brain, as a "spirit' or ghost?
I don't know that either but i seem to have found something on that by directly testing information that came from a known deceased person with a positive result in physical product just from applying the information in a real time test.

Is it just me talking to myself, manifesting physical material from pure thought and energy?
Self fulfilling prophecy?
Mental illness?
The universe?
God?
Deceased relatives?
Knowledge i already had but forgot?
Someone else doing it to me?

I don't know.
Whatever it is, i rather like it.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I think what we're calling metaphysics is nothing more than some of the very subtle energetic phenomena we're presently ignoring and mislabeling. Did you know there are metamaterials which are exotic materials created in labs that have unusual optical, electromagnetic and quantum properties without being metaphysical? We don't need to invent a separate physics or a separate nature to experience these things. I don't need a supernatural or a paranormal to get what an animal is communicating to me with just a look. (THAT doesn't happen often) it's ALL nature and physics. Now, is that some kind of "Life" or eternal continuum?
I don't know, but that coincidence phenomenon has appeared at many times to be directly associated with Biological Life.
Can biological life exist as a cohesive coherent living being without a body and brain, as a "spirit' or ghost?
I don't know that either but i seem to have found something on that by directly testing information that came from a known deceased person with a positive result in physical product just from applying the information in a real time test.

Is it just me talking to myself, manifesting physical material from pure thought and energy?
Self fulfilling prophecy?
Mental illness?
The universe?
God?
Deceased relatives?
Knowledge i already had but forgot?
Someone else doing it to me?

I don't know.
Whatever it is, i rather like it.

What I understand to be metaphysics is all vibrational nature of the universe yet undetectable by present science. I think that is pretty much what you are saying but add that imho, contemporary science is far from detecting the more subtle vibrations metaphysics called etheric, ka, ba, astral, manasic, atmic/spiritual, etc..

The problem discussing this subject with those who demand objective proof for common subjective experiences involving what some may call a 'sixth sense' involving prescience, telepathy, etc., is that it is resented big time. I would suppose you are familiar with the work of Rupert Sheldrake, he has been treated badly by orthodox science.

No I don't think you are talking to yourself, and I am interested in all those areas. Please feel free to discuss your experience with the deceased person or whatever you wish.

 

[godnotgod]

So are you saying Brahman came from nothing or Brahman is nothing?

Brahman does not come and go. It is Unborn; Changeless.

"The intellect can conceive of Brahman as truth-consciousness-bliss. That is the reason why these attributes are ascribed to Him. But Brahman is different from satchidananda also. This does not mean that Brahman is non-entity or zero, a negative concept or metaphysical abstraction. He is the only Reality or living Truth. He is Being. He is essence. He is a mass of knowledge or pure consciousness. He is the substratum for everything....

...That from which this world has come out, that in which this world exists, that in which it gets dissolved is Brahman. Brahman or Atman or the Supreme Self is self-luminous. Brahman cannot be manifested by anything else. Brahman manifests everything."

What is Brahman?

 

[godnotgod]

Is it just me talking to myself, manifesting physical material from pure thought and energy?
Self fulfilling prophecy?
Mental illness?
The universe?
God?
Deceased relatives?
Knowledge i already had but forgot?
Someone else doing it to me?
.

Who, or what, is it that is asking the questions?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Brahman does not come and go. It is Unborn; Changeless.

"The intellect can conceive of Brahman as truth-consciousness-bliss. That is the reason why these attributes are ascribed to Him. But Brahman is different from satchidananda also. This does not mean that Brahman is non-entity or zero, a negative concept or metaphysical abstraction. He is the only Reality or living Truth. He is Being. He is essence. He is a mass of knowledge or pure consciousness. He is the substratum for everything....

...That from which this world has come out, that in which this world exists, that in which it gets dissolved is Brahman. Brahman or Atman or the Supreme Self is self-luminous. Brahman cannot be manifested by anything else. Brahman manifests everything."

What is Brahman?

Precisely, Brahman is not zero, not nothing. Nothing does not exist because Brahman is the only reality and never had a beginning.

 

[godnotgod]

Precisely, Brahman is not zero, not nothing. Nothing does not exist because Brahman is the only reality and never had a beginning.

Well, no, not nothing in the sense of not being anything at all, because it IS Pure Consciousness, but in the sense of being no-thing, and because it is no (particular) thing, it is Every-thing. But the Everything that It is, is not a material substance, though it seems to be. That is its maya via lila, or divine play.

The Everything and All that is Brahman, is Attributeless, or, in Buddhist terms, Empty of inherent self-nature. In that sense, the Hindu Brahman seems to be the Buddhist Sunyata (and science's Unified Field).

and....

Huainan zi

The Formless and the Soundless

Now, the Formless is the great forefather of creatures, and the Soundless is the great ancestor of sounds. . . . Therefore you look at it and cannot see its form, you listen to it and cannot hear its sound, you follow it and cannot get to its person.(1) It is formless, but what has form is generated from it; it is soundless, but the five sounds resonate from it; it is tasteless, but the five tastes take form from it; it is colorless, but the five colors are developed from it. Therefore Being is generated from Non-Being, and the actual is generated from the empty. What is below heaven is its fold, and thus names and actualities (mingshi) dwell together in it.

Notes

(1) Compare Laozi, sec. 14 ("If you look at it, you do not see it: it is called invisible. If you listen to it, you do not hear it: it is called inaudible. If you grasp it, you do not get it: it is called imperceptible") and sec. 35 ("If you look at it, this is not sufficient to see it; if you listen to it, this is not sufficient to hear it").

Huainan zi, chapter 1. Translation published in Fabrizio Pregadio, "The Notion of 'Form' and the Ways of Liberation in Daoism," Cahiers d'Extrême-Asie 14 (2004): 100-1.

Taoist Texts - Huainan zi

This is the sense in which I am referring to Brahman as Nothingness. There is nothing here for the mind to grasp.

 

[gnostic]

This pertains primarily to personal views; I have my personal view, and you have yours. If I also have an open mind, I allow that your personal view may have validity as I value my own. However, these are still personal views. Higher Consciousness is transcendent of all personal views. It is a view outside the confines of the self, and as such, does not see things through the filter of the personal 'I', but sees them instead as they actually are.

I would agree that we both have personal views, I would agree that each of us, recognizing each other's view as possible valid view, and that would be what we call "open mind".

But I also considered your "Higher Consciousness" and the whole "transcendent" to be nothing than opinions and belief, because it is not something that EVERYONE can verify and test if it is true.

Non-believers would just have you word that such a consciousness exist. How do we know it is not merely ecstasy, hallucination or delusion?

I have always seen consciousness being as part of the brain's function. And consciousness cease when the brain cease to function, through severe brain trauma or death.

Imagine a scenario, where two men, A & B, in the car, one (A) is a master of master of meditation and said to be able to transcend beyond his own self, reaching the "still mind", you and ben have claimed about, and the other (B) is just your average joe. And say that have had car accident, where they are both brain-dead.

Do you really think guy A's consciousness is still functioning at the highest level? Or is he no better shape than his companion B?
And how could you possibly tell that A has any consciousness at all, let alone the higher consciousness?​

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Well, no, not nothing in the sense of not being anything at all, because it IS Pure Consciousness, but in the sense of being no-thing, and because it is no (particular) thing, it is Every-thing. But the Everything that It is, is not a material substance, though it seems to be. That is its maya via lila, or divine play.

The Everything and All that is Brahman, is Attributeless, or, in Buddhist terms, Empty of inherent self-nature. In that sense, the Hindu Brahman seems to be the Buddhist Sunyata.

and....

Huainan zi

The Formless and the Soundless

Now, the Formless is the great forefather of creatures, and the Soundless is the great ancestor of sounds. . . . Therefore you look at it and cannot see its form, you listen to it and cannot hear its sound, you follow it and cannot get to its person.(1) It is formless, but what has form is generated from it; it is soundless, but the five sounds resonate from it; it is tasteless, but the five tastes take form from it; it is colorless, but the five colors are developed from it. Therefore Being is generated from Non-Being, and the actual is generated from the empty. What is below heaven is its fold, and thus names and actualities (mingshi) dwell together in it.

Notes

(1) Compare Laozi, sec. 14 ("If you look at it, you do not see it: it is called invisible. If you listen to it, you do not hear it: it is called inaudible. If you grasp it, you do not get it: it is called imperceptible") and sec. 35 ("If you look at it, this is not sufficient to see it; if you listen to it, this is not sufficient to hear it").

Huainan zi, chapter 1. Translation published in Fabrizio Pregadio, "The Notion of 'Form' and the Ways of Liberation in Daoism," Cahiers d'Extrême-Asie 14 (2004): 100-1.

Taoist Texts - Huainan zi

This is the sense in which I am referring to Brahman as Nothingness. There is nothing here for the mind to grasp.

Gng, why the semantics...I understand the etymology of 'nothing' shows it comes from 'no thing'...but 'nothing' is being used by the OP and most posters in this thread as implying absolute nothing, zero, an absence of existence, not being anything at all.

 

[McBell]

Thus your calling on him to make the start as if you were capable of deeper discourse other than merely calling "bold empty claim', shows that you are not capable of engaging on the subject in question due to ignorance, and then you make the claim that this ignorance is the reason you do not make bold empty claims.

He made a bold empty claim
I called his bold empty claim a bold empty claim.
Now we are waiting for him to man up and support his bold empty claim.

And you failed to present the bold empty claim you claim I made.

Like I said, I ain't holding my breath.

Oh...what bold faced lies are you referring to, please quote my exact words and context. Failure to do so will reveal what we already know about you!

Round and round and round you go.

Feel free to call whatever names you like.
Your credibility is already as shot as it can get and if you are attacking me, you leaving others alone.