A Universe from Nothing?

[McBell]

So your mind is squirming like a toad preventing you from paying attention for even a split second to what is being pointed to, plunging it instead into an emotionally charged response further destroying your attention. Your science has you by the b**lls in lockstep.

Is it at all conceivable to you even in the least that perfectly valid forms of knowledge exist besides that of science and factual evidence?

STILL waiting for you to present something substantial instead of all this empty lip service...

 

[McBell]

Well, now. We are intelligent beings, are we not? So let us attempt to use our intelligence, shall we?

Can you do or think anything without intelligence?

WE are not the universe.

That was not even a decent try

 

[godnotgod]

WE are not the universe.

That was not even a decent try

That's not what I said. I asked you a question:

Can you do or think anything without intelligence?

 

[godnotgod]

Gng, why the semantics...I understand the etymology of 'nothing' shows it comes from 'no thing'...but 'nothing' is being used by the OP and most posters in this thread as implying absolute nothing, zero, an absence of existence, not being anything at all.

I was addressing your statement that:

"...the true vacuum bubble comes into existence from the quantum fluctuations of the false vacuum energy....it does not come from nothing."

It does if what you have described is maya.

 

[McBell]

That's not what I said. I asked you a question:

Can you do or think anything without intelligence?

You are going to have to explain how me doing something with intelligence has anything at all to do with showing that intelligence is fundamental to to universe....

But if intelligence is fundamental to the Universe, that means it is fundamental to us IOW, it is self-evident.

Now all you need to do is show that intelligence is fundamental....

 

[godnotgod]

WE are not the universe.

Is The Universe something that contains everything, or is it itself those very things?

 

[godnotgod]

You are going to have to explain how me doing something with intelligence has anything at all to do with showing that intelligence is fundamental to to universe....

Again, that is not what I said. I asked if you can do or think anything without intelligence? Can you answer the question instead of trying to second-guess what my intention is?

 

[McBell]

Is The Universe something that contains everything, or is it itself those very things?

ROTFLMAO

That is what you are suppose to show.
My thoughts are not relevant.
Either you can show it or you cannot.

 

[McBell]

Again, that is not what I said. I asked if you can do or think anything without intelligence? Can you answer the question instead of trying to second-guess what my intention is?

I am not attempting to second guess anything.
I am merely waiting for you to show that intelligence is fundamental to the universe.

That you seem completely unable to do so without making it interactive is your issue, not mine.

 

[McBell]

@godnotgod

I am not expecting a huge serious scientific peer reviewed blah blah blah showing irrefutable blah blsah blsh....

I am merely asking you to present why one might come to the conclusion that intelligence is fundamental to the universe.

Better yet, explain why YOU think so

 

[Ben Dhyan]

He made a bold empty claim
I called his bold empty claim a bold empty claim.
Now we are waiting for him to man up and support his bold empty claim.

And you failed to present the bold empty claim you claim I made.

Like I said, I ain't holding my breath.


Round and round and round you go.

Feel free to call whatever names you like.
Your credibility is already as shot as it can get and if you are attacking me, you leaving others alone.

More bold empty claims, it's all you apparently do...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I was addressing your statement that:

"...the true vacuum bubble comes into existence from the quantum fluctuations of the false vacuum energy....it does not come from nothing."

It does if what you have described is maya.

I don't understand what you mean, you agreed Brahman is not nothing, and is eternal. Now you seem to be saying that the materialist theory/maya is something that is nothing. So two things, regardless of the relative maya, Brahman is eternal and so there can not ever be absolute nothing, and secondly, if what was described is maya, the implication is that maya exists and so maya is not nothing.

There is no absolute nothing, ever!

 

[godnotgod]

I don't understand what you mean, you agreed Brahman is not nothing, and is eternal. Now you seem to be saying that the materialist theory/maya is something that is nothing. So two things, regardless of the relative maya, Brahman is eternal and so there can not ever be absolute nothing, and secondly, if what was described is maya, the implication is that maya exists and so maya is not nothing.

There is no absolute nothing, ever!

Brahman, as what maya purports to be, ie; "the material world", is non-existent, and is therefore nothing. Brahman itself cannot be encapsulated by any particular thing, and is also no-thing. It is outside of the class of 'things'. The pure consciousness that is Brahman is not a thing.

 

[godnotgod]

ROTFLMAO

That is what you are suppose to show.
My thoughts are not relevant.
Either you can show it or you cannot.

The question was in response to your statement that:

'We are not the universe'

So if that is the case, you have already answered your own question, but that is what I am questioning, because if the universe is those very things, then we are the universe.

But in order to address the issue of intelligence as fundamental to the universe, I am asking you to answer the question:

Can you do or think anything without intelligence first being in place?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Brahman, as what maya purports to be, ie; "the material world", is non-existent, and is therefore nothing. Brahman itself cannot be encapsulated by any particular thing, and is also no-thing. It is outside of the class of 'things'. The pure consciousness that is Brahman is not a thing.

It matters not you say Brahman is not a thing, it exists and is therefore not, nor did it arise from, 'nothing' in the sense the OP intended the term to mean, ie. nonexistence, zero.

I am not sure what you mean by "Brahman, as what maya purports to be, ie; "the material world", is non-existent, and is therefore nothing."?

 

[godnotgod]

It matters not you say Brahman is not a thing, it exists and is therefore not, nor did it arise from, 'nothing' in the sense the OP intended the term to mean, ie. nonexistence, zero.

I am not sure what you mean by "Brahman, as what maya purports to be, ie; "the material world", is non-existent, and is therefore nothing."?

Brahman is The Universe, but The Universe is maya, so The Universe is an apparition. It is not what it seems to be, ie; 'material reality'. Only the invisible, tasteless, odorless, silent, formless Brahman is real.

 

[gnostic]

Well, no, not nothing in the sense of not being anything at all, because it IS Pure Consciousness, but in the sense of being no-thing, and because it is no (particular) thing, it is Every-thing. But the Everything that It is, is not a material substance, though it seems to be. That is its maya via lila, or divine play.

The Everything and All that is Brahman, is Attributeless, or, in Buddhist terms, Empty of inherent self-nature. In that sense, the Hindu Brahman seems to be the Buddhist Sunyata (and science's Unified Field).

Just because humans have intelligence and consciousness, it doesn't mean that the universe have intelligence and consciousness.

And since you use words like these mythological Cosmic Consciousness, Pure Consciousness and Brahman, then it is really up to you or ben d to show that these do existence with evidences.

All of these capitalized words are me

You cannot shift the burden of proof to someone else who don't believe in your myths.

 

[gnostic]

Context gnostic, the discussion referred to medic's opinions about the placebo effect. Some more open minded medics believe it is an effective tool in treatment, other medics do not. I am saying those who do not believe in it have a more materialistic mindset, not that placebo per se has to do with materialism. Do physicians really believe in placebos?

Since the cause of the placebo effect is unknown to science, who is to say that metaphysics is not involved. https://investorintel.com/market-analysis/market-analysis-intel/business-placebo-effect-psychology-meets-metaphysics/

If the placebo effect is efficacious, then who cares if some call it fake?

Because the placebo effect don't always work.

Fake is fake.

Just as your religion is fake, fake belief and fake practice.

You have not shown a single shred evidence that your religious practice of reaching transcendent state is no more than your personal belief that you have reached this state.

And religious reasoning and logic are not evidence, they are simply your personal, subjective and very biased rationale.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Brahman is The Universe, but The Universe is maya, so The Universe is an apparition. It is not what it seems to be, ie; 'material reality'. Only the invisible, tasteless, odorless, silent, formless Brahman is real.

Yes, Brahman is the Universe, but it is not the Universe that is maya, it is the human mind's perception and conception of it as being constituted of many parts/ aspects that is maya, for the Universe is an indivisible One. The apparent aspects are real in the relative sense of what is perceived, but they are not real relative to absolute apprehension of Brahman, and hence are maya.

The transcending of maya is the realization of a mind free from conceptualization, from thought, whereby what is is present, not a conceptual interpretation.

Nonexistence/nothing are concepts that only ever have relative connotations, such as pink unicorns are nonexistent, there is nothing to talk about.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Because the placebo effect don't always work.

Fake is fake.

Just as your religion is fake, fake belief and fake practice.

You have not shown a single shred evidence that your religious practice of reaching transcendent state is no more than your personal belief that you have reached this state.

And religious reasoning and logic are not evidence, they are simply your personal, subjective and very biased rationale.

You don't get to determine for others what is fake, you only get to determine for your own little self what you think is fake. To think otherwise only shows you up as being fake!

And by the way, what university or college is it that you received your civil engineering degree you tell us about?