A Universe from Nothing?

[URAVIP2ME]

This is simplistic nonsense. "Power and strength" is poetry; not physics, not mechanism. And I question your textbook. It doesn't pass scientific muster.

How is Isaiah 40:26; Jeremiah 10:12; Jeremiah 27:5; Jeremiah 32:17 ' poetry ' and out of harmony with science saying the universe had a start ?
Like a power grid, God supplied the needed ' energy ' (power and strength) to start or begin the universe.

Does the Earth hang upon something ? _____ The answer is 'nothing' according to Job 26:7 B, and isn't that in harmony with known science ?

 

[ArtieE]

Yeah, I forget that you are a rogue theologian. Bahaullah said that he had several mystical experiences, and received a vision of a maiden from God, through whom he received his mission as a messenger of God and as the one whose coming the Báb had prophesied.

What does that have to do with the question of why there is a God in the first place?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.Of course all cosmic forms have beginnings....on earth and in the heavens....from man to stars ...and while all these are temporary and finite....the universe itself is eternal and infinite. The universe is defined as being ONE....it contains all there is... the apparent manifestation and the unseen unmanifest..

We see that on Earth things are perishable, and the Earth does renew itself.
So, perishable things are temporary, but according to Scripture (Ecclesiastes 1:4 B) God made the Earth to be a permanent fixture in the universe. If Adam had Not broken God's Law, which carried with it the death penalty, then Adam would have been a permanent creation on Earth. Jesus is going to undo all the damage Satan and Adam brought upon us, thus giving righteous mankind the original opportunity as was given to Adam to live forever on a permanent Earth under righteous conditions .

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Existence did not have to create itself as it is eternal. To say existence could not create itself is plain silly....existence is eternal and thus never had a beginning.

Yes, according to Psalms 90:2 ' existence did Not have to create itself as it is eternal ' because the Creator is uncreated.
The Creator had No beginning, No start. The Creator ( aka God) was before the beginning.- Revelation 4:11

 

[ArtieE]

How is Isaiah 40:26; Jeremiah 10:12; Jeremiah 27:5; Jeremiah 32:17 ' poetry ' and out of harmony with science saying the universe had a start ?
Like a power grid, God supplied the needed ' energy ' (power and strength) to start or begin the universe.

But science says that time itself started with the universe so there couldn't have been a time before time started where God hadn't "started" the universe yet...

Time zero was when the universe started. There was no time -1 hour when a god hadn't "started" the universe yet.

 

[ArtieE]

Yes, according to Psalms 90:2 ' existence did Not have to create itself as it is eternal ' because the Creator is uncreated.
The Creator had No beginning, No start. The Creator ( aka God) was before the beginning.- Revelation 4:11

And why was there a "Creator" instead of no "Creator" in the first place?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

But science says that time itself started with the universe so there couldn't have been a time before time started where God hadn't "started" the universe yet...

According to Scripture (Ecclesiastes 3:11) eternity is in our hearts meaning that we can ' count time ' both forwards and backwards endlessly.
Each 'second' ( or fraction of a second ) we can count endlessly in both directions.
Doesn't that indicate that ' there couldn't have been a time before time started ' ?
However, as far as the universe, did it always exist ?

Since God created the spirit realm (invisible realm) the 'angelic sons of God' first - Job 38:4-5; Job 38:6-7- before creating the visible realm, then the heavenly invisible realm was created first in time before the visible material/physical existence. Our ' physical ' time, so to speak, is regulated by how we count or look at time, but does that necessarily mean ' time ' did Not exist since God had No beginning and is from everlasting. - Psalms 90:2

 

[URAVIP2ME]

And why was there a "Creator" instead of no "Creator" in the first place?

I would imagine, No Creator would equal No creation (us) - Revelation 4:11

 

[Ben Dhyan]

People seem to lean on this one a lot, but really it's quite simple.

If 'the big bang' or a similar 'first event' took place, what took place 'before' that is an incoherent question. Space-time is a property of the physical universe, so 'time' would not have been a factor up until the point it came into being.

There simply would be no 'before'.

And a 'no before' means a state of absolute nothing....no time, no space, no energy, no matter.....which state does not exist, never has and never will... the universe did not come from nothing, it is eternal...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

And a 'no before' means a state of absolute nothing....no time, no space, no energy, no matter.....which state does not exist, never has and never will... the universe did not come from nothing, it is eternal...

Isaiah and Jeremiah agree with you that the universe did Not come from nothing.
God supplied the needed dynamic energy to create the visible material world of existence

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Isaiah and Jeremiah agree with you that the universe did Not come from nothing.
God supplied the needed dynamic energy to create the visible material world of existence

So from where did this energy come from that God created?

 

[gnostic]

Are you two going on about this straw man of "something from nothing crap"?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

We see that on Earth things are perishable, and the Earth does renew itself.
So, perishable things are temporary, but according to Scripture (Ecclesiastes 1:4 B) God made the Earth to be a permanent fixture in the universe. If Adam had Not broken God's Law, which carried with it the death penalty, then Adam would have been a permanent creation on Earth. Jesus is going to undo all the damage Satan and Adam brought upon us, thus giving righteous mankind the original opportunity as was given to Adam to live forever on a permanent Earth under righteous conditions .

URAVIP2ME, you should recognize a figure of speech when you see one...Ecclesiastes 1:4 B "One generation goeth, and another generation cometh; but the earth abideth for ever", is merely referring the earth as an enduring creation relative to three score and ten years of man.. Contemporary science reveals that old planets and star systems are dying and new ones being created all the time throughout the universe...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Are you two going on about this straw man of "something from nothing crap"?

Why do you think it is a strawman when it is the thread topic?

So since it appears you want to engage....what say you gnostic.....seriously, where do you think the essential underlying substance of the universe came from?

 

[gnostic]

Why do you think it is a strawman when it is the thread topic?

So since it appears you want to engage....what say you gnostic.....seriously, where do you think the essential underlying substance of the universe came from?

You know that I have always maintain none of us know if there is substance or not, if there is space or not, or if there is time or not.

There is a barrier or event horizon that block what science and technology can detect, observe and measure.

The universe before the Recombination epoch, are unobservable, therefore cannot possibly know if there were a time zero, or what the singularity is, or is there "something" or "nothing".

We simply don't know.

Perhaps, the new space probe they will launch two years from now (2018), or more years if the mission get "delay", but the JWST (James Webb Space Telescope) might see beyond that of Recombination epoch, that we will get a better understanding of the earlier epochs of the BB cosmology.

Just because we don't know yet, doesn't mean that the Big Bang cosmology advocate for something from nothing scenario. And doesn't mean I have to jump into the murky water of religions and creation.

I am just pointing out that we don't have enough information, and the information we MIGHT have, cannot YET be verified.

I don't know about you...no , that's not true, you have already formed a biased belief/opinion and you are jumping to conclusion what you believe in, and what you think other people believe in that disagree with you... But for myself, I am willing to wait-and-see, even should science find an answer even after I have died. I just don't want to jump to conclusion and believe in any sort of wishful fantasy, like you mishmashing God, Brahman, Tao, nirvana together.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I have not reached my conclusion based on belief...but on understanding, logic, and reason...

I take that which is given....the universe exists....and see that there are only two possibilities by which it exists....

1) ...it exists because it has always existed... or 2)...it exists because it was created from a state of the absence of existence at some point...

Now obviously the very idea of existence being created by the state of absence of existence is just plain nonsense...option 1) is the only one that is possible....end of story..

 

[Thief]

Your denial does not change the fact....

and just what....do you think I deny?

your shallow retorts?.....yeah

 

[Thief]

The question was: "And why would there be "Spirit" in the first place instead of no "Spirit"?"

we get to ask Him when we get 'there'

 

[loverofhumanity]

I stand corrected.

That said, I by no means object to a religion being expanded in its parameters by those who take care it along time. Quite on the contrary.

If anything, I regret that the Bahai Faith does not go all the way and accepts the full consequences of connecting to non-Abrahamic (or shall I say Dharmic) traditions.

It may not be as bad as you think.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, according to Psalms 90:2 ' existence did Not have to create itself as it is eternal ' because the Creator is uncreated.
The Creator had No beginning, No start. The Creator ( aka God) was before the beginning.- Revelation 4:11

So existence never had a beginning? Then what is meant in the Bible by 'In the beginning' does it refer to an era or age?