A Universe from Nothing?

[LuisDantas]

It may not be as bad as you think.

Sorry, but that is not really an open question far as I am concerned.

Abrahamic parameters are simply not good enough to make justice to Dharma.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If anything, I regret that the Bahai Faith does not go all the way and accepts the full consequences of connecting to non-Abrahamic (or shall I say Dharmic) traditions.

As it stands, Bahai is one God, one Manifestation religion, as I said no different from any other Abrahamic religion - only you have to contribute towards building of their temples, which are disproportionate in size with the number of their adherents. Accepting earlier personalities (Adam, Noah, Solomon, etc.) as part of the new is common in these religions, without loosing their own supremacy. It has been the pattern all through.

What does that have to do with the question of why there is a God in the first place?

I am surprised that even with the proof I have provided you are still not clear about existence of God and the holy mission of Bahaullah. Did not he have a vision of the maiden from God?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I have not reached my conclusion based on belief .. Now obviously the very idea of existence being created by the state of absence of existence is just plain nonsense...option 1) is the only one that is possible .. end of story..

A contradiction here. Do not say it is non-sense, say like Gnostic said - something that we do not know.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Sorry, but that is not really an open question far as I am concerned.

Abrahamic parameters are simply not good enough to make justice to Dharma.

My sticking point with the Baha'i Faith was always that it believed in a God. That was 41 years ago. I discovered that I was wrong after studying Some Answered Questions and the Book of Certitude. I thought 'if only the Bahais could rid themselves of this superstition called God they would be the perfect people to revive humanity' and I genuinely felt sorry for them.

 

[LuisDantas]

My sticking point with the Baha'i Faith was always that it believed in a God. That was 41 years ago. I discovered that I was wrong after studying Some Answered Questions and the Book of Certitude. I thought 'if only the Bahais could rid themselves of this superstition called God they would be the perfect people to revive humanity' and I genuinely felt sorry for them.

I take it that you changed your mind since somehow? What about?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I take it that you changed your mind since somehow? What about?

I was vehemently opposed to the concept of a God. I went through many Baha'i books to find quotes so I could write against them (and I did) to disprove them as false and that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha were wrong and the Bahai's were misguided.

In the process of reading their literature and being exposed to many of their Writings alone by myself, I found something. Some call it Nirvana, others Paradise or the Holy Grail. I had just found life's secret.

I cannot tell you what I found. My only answer is silence.

How many truths the garment of words can never contain.

“When the pen set to picturing this station,
It broke in pieces and the page was torn.
Salám”

Bahá’u’lláh. “The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys.”

 

[Ben Dhyan]

A contradiction here. Do not say it is non-sense, say like Gnostic said - something that we do not know.

So you believe that the idea of existence being created by the state of absence of existence is plausible....everything in existence came from nothing for no known reason?

 

[Valjean]

We see that on Earth things are perishable, and the Earth does renew itself.
So, perishable things are temporary, but according to Scripture (Ecclesiastes 1:4 B) God made the Earth to be a permanent fixture in the universe. If Adam had Not broken God's Law, which carried with it the death penalty, then Adam would have been a permanent creation on Earth. Jesus is going to undo all the damage Satan and Adam brought upon us, thus giving righteous mankind the original opportunity as was given to Adam to live forever on a permanent Earth under righteous conditions .

According to Scripture (Ecclesiastes 3:11) eternity is in our hearts meaning that we can ' count time ' both forwards and backwards endlessly.
Each 'second' ( or fraction of a second ) we can count endlessly in both directions.
Doesn't that indicate that ' there couldn't have been a time before time started ' ?
However, as far as the universe, did it always exist ?

Since God created the spirit realm (invisible realm) the 'angelic sons of God' first - Job 38:4-5; Job 38:6-7- before creating the visible realm, then the heavenly invisible realm was created first in time before the visible material/physical existence. Our ' physical ' time, so to speak, is regulated by how we count or look at time, but does that necessarily mean ' time ' did Not exist since God had No beginning and is from everlasting. - Psalms 90:2

What's with all this "scripture?" Do you think this is authoritative? fact based? tested? Peer reviewed? Why is this ancient folklore more authoritative than science?
Bible quotes don't further your position, except among those already convinced. Why do you not quote the Tao, the Gita or Harry Potter? What makes them any less authoritative?

So existence never had a beginning? Then what is meant in the Bible by 'In the beginning' does it refer to an era or age?

Are you seriously trying to counter physics with scripture?

 

[LuisDantas]

I was vehemently opposed to the concept of a God.

I take it that you think I am as well?

Sort of. Mostly, I find it far more trouble than it is worth.

Religion deserves better.

I went through many Baha'i books to find quotes so I could write against them (and I did) to disprove them as false and that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha were wrong and the Bahai's were misguided.

The irony of it is that they both are and are not.

While there is no doubt in my mind that they are completely misguided in their insistence at co-opting the Dharmic faiths, nonetheless their (your) good will bears worthwhile fruit nonetheless.

It is a worthy creed, despite and in no small measure because it is deeply mistaken about itself.

In the process of reading their literature and being exposed to many of their Writings alone by myself, I found something. Some call it Nirvana, others Paradise or the Holy Grail. I had just found life's secret.

Would the realization that people with sincere good will joined together in cooperation will always create something with undeniable value at least hint in the general direction of what you found?

I vividly recall my own marvel at that atmosphere from my time with the Bahai of my previous living place.

I guess I am expecting too much of the Bahai.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I take it that you think I am as well?

Sort of. Mostly, I find it far more trouble than it is worth.

Religion deserves better.


The irony of it is that they both are and are not.

While there is no doubt in my mind that they are completely misguided in their insistence at co-opting the Dharmic faiths, nonetheless their (your) good will bears worthwhile fruit nonetheless.

It is a worthy creed, despite and in no small measure because it is deeply mistaken about itself.


Would the realization that people with sincere good will joined together in cooperation at least hint in the general direction of what you found?

I vividly recall my own marvel at that atmosphere from my time with the Bahai of my previous living place.

I guess I am expecting too much of the Bahai.

It is essentially a mystical experience.

"At that hour will the mystic Herald “through the trumpet-blast of knowledge, will awaken the heart, the soul, and the spirit from the slumber of negligence. ...

he (the seeker) will find himself endowed with a new eye, a new ear, a new heart, and a new mind.”

“and will, led by its perfume, attain and enter the City of Certitude.”

Baha'u'llah - The Book of Certitude

 

[McBell]

and just what....do you think I deny?

your shallow retorts?.....yeah

You deny your dogma is dogma

 

[McBell]

So you believe that the idea of existence being created by the state of absence of existence is plausible....everything in existence came from nothing for no known reason?

Just as plausible, and has the exact same amount of empirical objective evidence, as "GodDidIt"

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Just as plausible, and has the exact same amount of empirical objective evidence, as "GodDidIt"

So we can agree that both have the exact same amount of impirical objective evidence....the only difference is as I understand what you said is that you believe the something from nothing miraculous creation is as plausible God did it...whereas I say both are implausible.....for the essential substance of the universe is eternal...

 

[Valjean]

Actually it has more evidence, though, inasmuch as there is zero evidence for GodDidIt, this isn't a particularly high bar.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Actually it has more evidence, though, inasmuch as there is zero evidence for GodDidIt, this isn't a particularly high bar.

And what evidence is that that shows why and how something can come from nothing?

 

[McBell]

So we can agree that both have the exact same amount of impirical objective evidence....the only difference is as I understand what you said is that you believe the something from nothing miraculous creation is as plausible God did it...whereas I say both are implausible.....for the essential substance of the universe is eternal...

Yes.
One is as plausible as the other.

That you dislike it being presenting in the positive instead of the negative has absolutely no bearing on the fact they are equal in plausibility.

 

[Valjean]

Google Big Bang Theory or Cosmogeny.
The physics and mathematics are pretty complicated, though.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes.
They are both equally plausible.

That you dislike it being presenting in the positive instead of the negative has absolutely no bearing on the fact they are both equally plausible.

But how can they be plausible when there is zero empirical evidence? Do you believe it plausible that pink carnivorous unicorns exist in Texas?

 

[Aupmanyav]

So you believe that the idea of existence being created by the state of absence of existence is plausible....everything in existence came from nothing for no known reason?

Same reply. Who knows? Let us find out.

I cannot tell you what I found. My only answer is silence.

Nice answer. .. (I) Know about God but cannot tell you. .. God cannot be known but I know him thru my books .. or whatever. Confabulation.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Google Big Bang Theory or Cosmogeny.
The physics and mathematics are pretty complicated, though.

There is no direct evidence...just the claim that nothing can be known as to why or how it began....the theory relies on the believers accepting that something from nothing just happened for no know reason...and get on with the maths concerned with aftermath...