Abolition of Alcohol

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony, it simply can't be helped: what you see as "a messenger from God," I see as "somebody who claims to be a messenger from God." Since I believe in no gods at all, it's pretty hard for me to suppose that such messengers can be what is claimed by and for them.

That is also 100% OK and this also ties into my post that Faith teaches itself.

These will become issues that will be addressed by all peoples, or they will not be.

This OP has shown me that this topic, which actually ties into many more, that have been offerd in this OP, is not yet a topic people are willing to explore.

Thus I do wonder what it will take, if one chooses to consider it from the view that Messengers do give a Message from God.

In this case my Faith says the world is going to suffer many waves of calamity because it is not addressing these issues.

So time will tell and I just wish happiness and safety for all people, but I am afraid for those that will face these calamities without the coping mechanisms available.

Regards Tony

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I also see it has been traditionally used by some indigenous people of North America. I respect their culture. However, back in the day they were ignorant that what they were experiencing a distortion of reality. I don't think a distortion of reality is good. They should be told today that what they are experiencing is not reality. I wouldn't ban it though as it is not addictive and they probably use it only on special occasions.

So, what if people who don't believe your beliefs start bombarding you with stuff to suggest your beliefs are just a distortion of reality? This can be claimed against you.
And you think they are so primitive they don't know what psychedelics drugs are? That they need told this?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, what if people who don't believe your beliefs start bombarding you with stuff to suggest your beliefs are just a distortion of reality? This can be claimed against you.
And you think they are so primitive they don't know what psychedelics drugs are? That they need told this?

I see there is a lot of education needed in the world as many people do not get a good quality of education, some get none at all.

That is a reality and needs no debate.

What should be taught does need to be considered on a global scale.

Regards Tony

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I see there is a lot of education needed in the world as many people do not get a good quality of education, some get none at all.

That is a reality and needs no debate.

What should be taught does need to be considered on a global scale.

Regards Tony

That most religions teach distortions of reality? Prophets, tarot cards, "feeling the spirit," astrology, speaking in tongues, is that what we are teaching on a global scale? Because it seems to me to be beyond unreasonable and unfair to tell some people their religion is while pretending yours can't be said to be doing the same thing.
The world does need to learn about responsible drug use and do away with this absurd and silly forbidden fruit temptation they have attached to them.
And, by the way, you have been advocating banning drugs.

So this OP shows my stance, that alcoholic beverages are not needed they are a drug of choice and all recreational drugs need to be Abolished. America tried, so what will it take?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That most religions teach distortions of reality? Prophets, tarot cards, "feeling the spirit," astrology, speaking in tongues, is that what we are teaching on a global scale? Because it seems to me to be beyond unreasonable and unfair to tell some people their religion is while pretending yours can't be said to be doing the same thing.
The world does need to learn about responsible drug use and do away with this absurd and silly forbidden fruit temptation they have attached to them.
And, by the way, you have been advocating banning drugs.

Yes indeed I see not doubt hands down recreational Drugs should be abolished, preferably by choice, but if not, by a very strong enforcement of the drug trade on a worldwide intensive basis.

This OP was exploring what can be done with the Alcohol Issue, it appears that the majority will like to see things stay as they are, but I doubt the future will have the same views.

Regards Tony

 

[Truthseeker]

So, what if people who don't believe your beliefs start bombarding you with stuff to suggest your beliefs are just a distortion of reality? This can be claimed against you.
And you think they are so primitive they don't know what psychedelics drugs are? That they need told this?

The psychodelic, not beliefs are a distortion of reality.

Yes, I admit, that that times have changed for most indigenous people, and they do realize this. Not all. My good friend Kevin Locke does realize this. Left Hand Bull also realizes this.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes indeed I see not doubt hands down recreational Drugs should be abolished, preferably by choice, but if not, by a very strong enforcement of the drug trade on a worldwide intensive basis.

This OP was exploring what can be done with the Alcohol Issue, it appears that the majority will like to see things stay as they are, but I doubt the future will have the same views.

Regards Tony

I really doubt the future will change in regards to abolishing alcohol. And it shouldn't. We need healthy views amd approaches to alcohol, but it shouldn't be abolished. That fails.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The psychodelic, not beliefs are a distortion of reality.

Claiming to speak for god is a distortion of reality. We've learned and know better since that passed for being something to take on faith. Having spiritual experiences we've learned and know the brain is doing stuff.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Where I live alcohol is a regulated substance. It is regulated, however adults have personal responsibility, privacy and autonomy. That is important I think: autonomy.

In this country we experimented with banishing alcohol. Banning it yielded little or no benefit, and the prohibition laws were repealed. Secondly it was the government telling people "You are incompetent to make your own decisions." I don't think that is healthy. People should be allowed to feel like they have a moral compass even without a government directing them.

Yeah, but don't you kind of think that alcohol tends to erode autonomy. What does it do to families, what does it do to people's kids. My dad was a vigorous alcoholic for much of my life, until the diabetes and the comas kicked in. He got home and drank, within a few minutes. It changed his mood into that of a gloomy, negative person.

It caused him to rant about how responsible he was, and how much he disliked other people, and he could rant and judge everything and everyone, all because of that depressant effect. Then eventually he'd pass out, after filling the house with beer-fueled complaining, only to do it the next day. And the next day. Do you think children should be exposed to a person who drinks in the privacy of their home, where some moodiness will inevitably surface, or become amplified by the mere and bare fact that alcohol does this

There is something good about choosing to be smart versus never having to make a decision. If you never had to decide to behave and to take responsibility then you would lack a certain source of confidence and appreciation for developing your own wits.

How do we know that this doesn't have to do mainly with the robustness of the frontal cortex, or other part of the brain ? Is that something anyone really controls, or does it just develop naturally how it will

 

[amorphous_constellation]

What is your stance, what is your view?

I think alcohol is a mind-narrowing drug, and an unnatural invention of man. I tend to think it should be allowed if you don't intend on reproduction, because it is barbaric to drink around kids , possibly especially in the privacy of one's home. The person consuming the alcohol knows that no one is there to judge them, so they just knock 'em back, and as the inhibitions are restrained, the kids get to watch the ego of such a person expand

I don't really know who my dad is. I was raised by a talking molecule, that used a man as a marionette. And now, he's more aged, and comas and years of drinking seemed to have given him light brain damage. Maybe it also has something to do with the diabetes or the medication, I haven't taken the time to read much about that. In any case his personality is markedly clipped, in a way that I can perceive.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think alcohol is a mind-narrowing drug, and an unnatural invention of man. I tend to think it should be allowed if you don't intend on reproduction, because it is barbaric to drink around kids , possibly especially in the privacy of one's home. The person consuming the alcohol knows that no one is there to judge them, so they just knock 'em back, and as the inhibitions are restrained, the kids get to watch the ego of such a person expand

I don't really know who my dad is. I was raised by a talking molecule, that used a man as a marionette. And now, he's more aged, and comas and years of drinking seemed to have given him light brain damage. Maybe it also has something to do with the diabetes or the medication, I haven't taken the time to read much about that. In any case his personality is markedly clipped, in a way that I can perceive.

Yes that is the most sad part of it all. A drinker will not worry about the effects they are having on others, as long as they consider they have the right and enjoy themselves.

Alcohol infant syndrome is high where I live and surrounding communities. The children are really destroyed for life, not able to reach the potential they could have and disruption for other children at school.

This OP has surprised me, I did not realise that unbridled liberty was now indeed a strong mindset, we have been warned about the effect it will have on humanity.

Regards Tony

 

[Brickjectivity]

Yeah, but don't you kind of think that alcohol tends to erode autonomy. What does it do to families, what does it do to people's kids. My dad was a vigorous alcoholic for much of my life, until the diabetes and the comas kicked in. He got home and drank, within a few minutes. It changed his mood into that of a gloomy, negative person.

It caused him to rant about how responsible he was, and how much he disliked other people, and he could rant and judge everything and everyone, all because of that depressant effect. Then eventually he'd pass out, after filling the house with beer-fueled complaining, only to do it the next day. And the next day. Do you think children should be exposed to a person who drinks in the privacy of their home, where some moodiness will inevitably surface, or become amplified by the mere and bare fact that alcohol does this

I have a friend (aside from you), and his father was despondent, abusive and alcoholic. His father died drunk from a ruined body. I didn't know the family, and I don't know why the father gave up and decided to drink himself to death. It could be that he felt he was a failure and hopeless and was depressed, or it could be that he had an unusual reaction to the alcohol. A person can get beaten down in this life and lose their way. I am not able to tell my friend what happened to his father, and its not my place to do that nor me to tell you.

How do we know that this doesn't have to do mainly with the robustness of the frontal cortex, or other part of the brain ? Is that something anyone really controls, or does it just develop naturally how it will

Banishment of alcohol seems not to work. Individual treatment, such as a court order, might work better. There could be ways to legally prevent certain people from buying it, because it is regulated. We don't let minors buy it, so perhaps this could be helped with families or doctors requesting court orders to prevent certain people buying alcohol. Its an idea, not a fully worked out idea.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

This to me is an important topic and will eventually be a topic discussed around the world because of the dire consequences this drug of choice inflicts upon the individual, the family, the community, the Nation and on to the entire body of humanity.

I unfortunately live in a Nation that pride themselves on getting drunk, and that mentality is expanding as the world is locked down.

I long for the day when the business of Alcohol is seen for what it has become, a killer of humanity.

So this OP shows my stance, that alcoholic beverages are not needed they are a drug of choice and all recreational drugs need to be Abolished. America tried, so what will it take?

What is your stance, what is your view?

Edit I added this so the intent of this OP is known, as my wording might not have shown that is the case.

"So this OP is all about choice and this OP is to explore why we would choose to abstain, if there was no law, or if we may again consider that a law is needed."

Regards Tony

Even if I would bend over backwards and go along with the silly idea of "all recreational drugs should be outlawed"... if there is anything that America's prohibition and "war on drugs" has thought us, it is that

1. neither solves the problem of drug / alcohol abuse

2. they only make criminals rich and more dangerous

The best way to control the criminal drug industry AND protect users and general populace from violence and abuse as much as possible, is by legalizing it and regulating it.

That also brings quality control to it.
It also makes sure users and street-dealers no longer need to frequent hardcore criminals, who also do other stuff besides selling weed or illegal whiskey. Street-deals, as a matter of fact, would go out of business.


It all starts with the realization that you are not going to succeed in making people stop taking drugs or drinking alcohol. Fighting it, is only going to make criminals strong and it won't stop usage at all.

 

[Father Heathen]

I oppose the idea of prohibition because I believe in personal freedom and personal responsibility.
Deny the former when one habitually fails in the latter.
Nothing wrong with a bit of fun and euphoria in moderation.

 

[PureX]

I oppose the idea of prohibition because I believe in personal freedom and personal responsibility.
Deny the former when one habitually fails in the latter.
Nothing wrong with a bit of fun and euphoria in moderation.

It is a trade-off.

Freedom cannot be absolute. We have to recognize this going in if we ever hope to survive as a species. It has to be balanced against our responsibility to respect each other and the Earth that sustains us or it's not freedom at all, it's just the oppressors buying themselves more than they deserve at the expense of everyone else. So the question becomes where do we draw that line? If we allow people to indulge in recreational drugs and alcohol use, most will do so responsibly, but some will not. Does the damage done by the few who will abuse these substances warrant denying the many access to them? That's the real question.

I don't think so, for several reasons. One is that we do not have the ability to abjectly deny the population access to these substances. We can make them illegal, but that will not stop their availability. So the damage will be done, regardless. Though perhaps on a lesser scale. Secondly, I think it's wrong to determine the course of humanity based on it's worst inclinations and behaviors, rather than on it's best. And that's what we would be doing in trying to ban access to these recreational substances based on the damage caused by their abuse.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Banishment of alcohol seems not to work. Individual treatment, such as a court order, might work better. There could be ways to legally prevent certain people from buying it, because it is regulated. We don't let minors buy it, so perhaps this could be helped with families or doctors requesting court orders to prevent certain people buying alcohol. Its an idea, not a fully worked out idea.

While it is available you can not stop people getting it, it has been offered in this OP that Prohibition does not work, so laws are just another form of individual prohibition.

People get hold of it, if it is made.

Australia has tried dry Aboriginal communities and illigal alcohol importing commenced. The only places where it worked to some degree of success was when the community themselves, who took the decision not to drink, were the majority and policed it themselves.

People will continue to suffer while it is still available, so it comes down to those that use it, does you heart go out to those that suffer from it or not?

If you choose to abstain, then that action helps the whole and will empower others to do so.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Even if I would bend over backwards and go along with the silly idea of "all recreational drugs should be outlawed"... if there is anything that America's prohibition and "war on drugs" has thought us, it is that

1. neither solves the problem of drug / alcohol abuse

2. they only make criminals rich and more dangerous

The best way to control the criminal drug industry AND protect users and general populace from violence and abuse as much as possible, is by legalizing it and regulating it.

That also brings quality control to it.
It also makes sure users and street-dealers no longer need to frequent hardcore criminals, who also do other stuff besides selling weed or illegal whiskey. Street-deals, as a matter of fact, would go out of business.


It all starts with the realization that you are not going to succeed in making people stop taking drugs or drinking alcohol. Fighting it, is only going to make criminals strong and it won't stop usage at all.

The path would be education. Start training children in virtues and moral before they are even born, so that means youth of these days need to be empowered with virtue and morals and the encouragement to find their full potential so their children are raised in this light and not the light of unrestrained liberty.

They need to be taught moderation and restraint in the Material aspect of life and service to their community as a world citizen.

As adults we need to empower ourselves with change, rid ourselves of age old predudices on gender, race, religion and nationality and embrace virtue and morals over our materialistic trends and animalistic traits.

That should do it

Regards Tony

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We can make them illegal, but that will not stop their availability. So the damage will be done, regardless. Though perhaps on a lesser scale.

That has never worked though. It makes treatment harder to get and harder to research. It makes it easier for kids to get. It makes violent and dangerous criminals rich. It makes criminals out of otherwise law abiding citizens for nothing more than petty possession charges.

I think alcohol is a mind-narrowing drug, and an unnatural invention of man. I tend to think it should be allowed if you don't intend on reproduction, because it is barbaric to drink around kids , possibly especially in the privacy of one's home. The person consuming the alcohol knows that no one is there to judge them, so they just knock 'em back, and as the inhibitions are restrained, the kids get to watch the ego of such a person expand

Most people don't have those problems. Last time I drank I didn't even get drunk.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Most people don't have those problems. Last time I drank I didn't even get drunk.

I would like a dollar for every motor vehicle driver, or disturber of the peace, or worker about to be tested, who gave that line to the policing officer.

I had a couple, but I am ok they say, but luckily science tells us what it does do and one of the things is a that a person thinks they are dandy, when they are not.

So my guess is I would shoot to the top of the richest person in the world with those dollars.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

A key to this OP is in the heading in the poll where it is offered can Consumption be Abolished.

What would it take?

Well it has been pointed out that prohibition did not work and we have established that it will still be made.

So how can Consumption be Abolished?

So far the most logical explanation has been Education and I am all for that, so when can we start teaching it?

Regards Tony