Abolition of Alcohol

[Shadow Wolf]

Like I said, I am from wisconsin, and whole towns here drink. My question is, do we have the same understanding of the verb, and I don't mean that sarcastically. Whole towns here actually drink, and that is their primary hobby. I am having trouble trying to look at it from the outside, because I can't. I don't think people here even think about it in terms of 'abuse,' or that they even measure their general intake. I guess your asking me about a level of introspection that I don't think applies here ; that isn't the approach people have around here

Heavy drinking on a societal level is what lead to the Temperance and Teetotaler movements that ultimately succeeding in prohibiting alcohol. They had these same concerns. But we know their solution of prohibition not only failed, it has failed with basically any substance that has been banned. Dangerous and violent criminals become wealthy and powerful. Addicts have few options for treatment and re often scared to admitting usage of an illegal substance. Unnecessary and detrimental barriers into these substances and addiction treatment exist. People who've done nothing wrong but possess a banned substance have their entire life ruined. And people find all sorts of alternatives. With cannabis and cocaine it has been spice and bath salts, and those are significantly and tons more deadly and dangerous than the substances these chemicals mimic. Foreign--and dangerous--substances also get added. This is as true as it is with heroin and cocaine as it was with alcohol when that was abolished.
What little good may come of this is vastly and heavily outweighed by the bad.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Really they just do it where they can. Sometimes people get stuck doing it in their houses by the weather here, but actually yeah, people actually do get out and do it in whatever weather.

I've known many alcoholics. My own father was one. I nearly fell down that hole myself, but I had the knowledge to have an awareness of what was going on and I quit drinking for a while, though I would continue the occasional binge drink over the next several years. Today, if anything I get tipsy/kind of drunk at the most. Usually nothing though. I just finished the Kirkland bottle of Irish cream whiskey I got for St. Patrick's Day (would have stretched it abit longer but it has to be used within six months) and don't have a buzz from it.
The reasons I had for drinking to excess were addressed, and now I just have a drink or two every once in awhile.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Heavy drinking on a societal level is what lead to the Temperance and Teetotaler movements that ultimately succeeding in prohibiting alcohol. They had these same concerns. But we know their solution of prohibition not only failed, it has failed with basically any substance that has been banned. Dangerous and violent criminals become wealthy and powerful. Addicts have few options for treatment and re often scared to admitting usage of an illegal substance. Unnecessary and detrimental barriers into these substances and addiction treatment exist. People who've done nothing wrong but possess a banned substance have their entire life ruined. And people find all sorts of alternatives. With cannabis and cocaine it has been spice and bath salts, and those are significantly and tons more deadly and dangerous than the substances these chemicals mimic. Foreign--and dangerous--substances also get added. This is as true as it is with heroin and cocaine as it was with alcohol when that was abolished.
What little good may come of this is vastly and heavily outweighed by the bad.

I don't disagree with a lot of that, I guess I am trying to make a moral argument more than a regulatory one (even though I said things about regulating it) . Ultimately it shifts the problem to a new front, where we are trying to figure out how responsible an individual can be. I guess a problem is, I don't know how responsible an individual can be with pure sovereignty. And ultimately, my emphasis is not on what the individual does to themselves, but on how they affect others.

If someone takes alcohol, and it lowers their inhibitions, numbs their frontal cortex, I am less concerned about what happens to that individual than I am on how they affect others. Others who had nothing to do with the choices they make, the ethical framework they have, and the moods they shift into, or actions they may take. In other words, the problem is that the drinker often affects at least their family, if not sometimes their greater community. So on that level, how do you separate the energies of the drinker from those external to them

Sorry if my arguments are getting a little less cohesive, I am starting to run out of steam on this topic

 

[TransmutingSoul]

People who've done nothing wrong but possess a banned substance have their entire life ruined.

Well that is what unbridled liberty thinks.

But if they broke the law, it is the law.

Regards Tony

 

[joelr]

My thought is that it will not take a prohibition, I am more inclined to see it will be what people eventually accept as the right way to live life, how and why they will consider that option has not yet unfolded.

Regards Tony

Why would all people think that it's the right way to live? Besides the vast majority of drinkers enjoy a glass of wine or a beer with dinner and that's about it. Medical evidence supports a glass of wine as healthy, a beer or 2 on a Sat night isn't going to have any notable negative long term effects? Many other drink even less, only now and then but still enjoy the freedom to occasionally have some alcohol.

But if one chooses to drink heavily at home it should be their choice. There will always be depression, issues with life and all sorts of hardship and some people will always want to be able to have a drink.
The correct way to live is subjective and one cannot force their truth on others without conflict. Generally you do whats right for you and influence people that way.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why would all people think that it's the right way to live?

That was brought up many times in the replies to this thread, no need to repeat but to say it is the right thing to do for the good of all people and in the end, people will want to do the right thing for the good of all people.

May take a while though.

Regards Tony

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The path would be education. Start training children in virtues and moral before they are even born, so that means youth of these days need to be empowered with virtue and morals and the encouragement to find their full potential so their children are raised in this light and not the light of unrestrained liberty.

There's nothing immoral about a glass of wine.

They need to be taught moderation and restraint in the Material aspect of life and service to their community as a world citizen.

Again, this isn't in conflict with the occasional drink.

As adults we need to empower ourselves with change, rid ourselves of age old predudices on gender, race, religion and nationality and embrace virtue and morals over our materialistic trends and animalistic traits.

That should do it

Regards Tony

None of this requires alcohol and drugs to be illegal.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I would like a dollar for every motor vehicle driver, or disturber of the peace, or worker about to be tested, who gave that line to the policing officer.

I had a couple, but I am ok they say, but luckily science tells us what it does do and one of the things is a that a person thinks they are dandy, when they are not.

So my guess is I would shoot to the top of the richest person in the world with those dollars.

Regards Tony

And if I had a dollar for every person that acted responsibly, doesn't use that line and tested negative, I'ld be exponentially richer then you.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

If the effects are not felt, why drink, makes no sense. Maybe just habit?

You think the only reason one might have a glass of wine or a beer, is for the purpose of getting drunk?

Seriously?

 

[oldbadger]

That was brought up many times in the replies to this thread, no need to repeat but to say it is the right thing to do for the good of all people and in the end, people will want to do the right thing for the good of all people.

May take a while though.

Regards Tony

No Tony. Banning alcohol would be just one more nail in the coffin of freedom.
In fact we ought to consider repealing many of the controlled substances laws, starting with cannabis resin.
If only cannabis could be purchased from licenced premises then our police could spend so much more time on deterring and catching burglaries rapes robberies etc.
And it could be taxed.
And fewer gangs etc.

Time to take a hatchet to such legislations.

 

[joelr]

That was brought up many times in the replies to this thread, no need to repeat but to say it is the right thing to do for the good of all people and in the end, people will want to do the right thing for the good of all people.

May take a while though.

Regards Tony

That's my point. Why is it for the good of all people? How is avoiding a drink with antioxidants that helps relax after dinner for the good of all people? How is skipping a few beers at a cookout on a cheat day for the good of all people?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If any one needs hp with a substance abuse issue in Australia.

Substance abuse, misuse and addiction | Lifeline Australia | 13 11 14

Regards Tony

 

[PureX]

A key to this OP is in the heading in the poll where it is offered can Consumption be Abolished.

What would it take?

Well it has been pointed out that prohibition did not work and we have established that it will still be made.

So how can Consumption be Abolished?

So far the most logical explanation has been Education and I am all for that, so when can we start teaching it?

Regards Tony

Education will not abolish alcohol consumption. Neither will prohibition (religious or secular). So the answer is that it cannot be abolished.

Most people can use and enjoy alcohol responsibly. So for them, and us, it's not a problem. Abolition would be an unnecessary and unjust imposition. For those others who cannot, and will not use it responsibly, there is only so much we can do. We can help them to abstain once they choose to try. And we can try to provide a safe environment for them when they continue to abuse alcohol, but that's about all we can do.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Education will not abolish alcohol consumption. Neither will prohibition (religious or secular). So the answer is that it cannot be abolished.

Most people can use and enjoy alcohol responsibly. So for them, and us, it's not a problem. Abolition would be an unnecessary and unjust imposition. For those others who cannot, and will not use it responsibly, there is only so much we can do. We can help them to abstain once they choose to try. And we can try to provide a safe environment for them when they continue to abuse alcohol, but that's about all we can do.

Then the safest environment for them would be none, thus the best way to help them would be ease in that choice.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Education will not abolish alcohol consumption. Neither will prohibition (religious or secular). So the answer is that it cannot be abolished

That is not correct, prohibition and education does have a success rate, but it needs more to embrace it as peer pressure these days sewms a key component. it is actually not that hard to give away once you put your mind to it,but then the will be many that do not find it so easy.

It was the same when one chooses not to eat red meat. Just stop it cold and find something else.

Regards Tony

 

[PureX]

Then the safest environment for them would be none, thus the best way to help them would be ease in that choice.

Regards Tony

I don't know what "none" means. There is no environment free from alcohol, except death. I hope you are not suggesting that!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't know what "none" means. There is no environment free from alcohol, except death. I hope you are not suggesting that!

The best environmemt is a strong mind that enableds one to make the choice not to use alcohol or drugs.

I know many people that live within that environment, and I bet there are millions of them around the world. All the while for them they can have heaps of fun times and not a durg or alcohol distraction to be found.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

A here is a good phone app, this can help those willing to see if they can go alcohol free

Spoiler: Easy Quit

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.herzberg.easyquitsdrinking&hl=en&gl=US&referrer=utm_source%3Dgoogle%26utm_medium%3Dorganic%26utm_term%3Dno+alcohol+challenge+app&pcampaignid=APPU_1_rPQtYZ7wB9mv9QON2Y2YCg&ved=2ahUKEwie9p3V99ryAhXZV30KHY1sA6MQ5YQBegQIBhAC&usg=AOvVaw0zOBWBM7a-G-3y0bdPnBWy

EasyQuit" is a free app that will help you quit drinking immediately or by using a "quit drinking slowly" mode. It has many motivational features

Regards Tony

 

[PureX]

That is not correct, prohibition and education does have a success rate,

No it doesn't. It can stop people who would not otherwise abuse alcohol from using it. But they aren't the problem. Among those who are inclined to become alcoholic, no amount of education will stop them from becoming alcoholic once they experience it, and no prohibition will stop them from experiencing it.

it is actually not that hard to give away once you put your mind to it,but then the will be many that do not find it so easy.

You clearly don't understand alcoholism. It is NOT A CHOICE. Any more than cancer is a choice. There is no "putting your mind to it". For many, there IS NO CURE. They will live until they die, alcoholic. We can kill them, or we can ease their suffering (and the suffering they cause others), and that's about it.

You want to play God, but you cannot. God has given each of us a lifetime to do with as we choose. And in that lifetime we will be caused to suffer disease, and illness, and all sorts of abuse from others. And you cannot change that. No laws, no education, no prohibitions will change that. The best we can do is help each other through the suffering, and make the most of the joy we get to experience.

It was the same when one chooses not to eat red meat. Just stop it cold and find something else.

That's just not how it works with addiction. There is no 'choice'. No one chose to become an alcoholic or a drug addict. And no one can simply choose not to be one once they are. Some people can, with help, learn how to stop abusing drugs and alcohol, but many cannot. And that's just the fact of it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And if I had a dollar for every person that acted responsibly, doesn't use that line and tested negative, I'ld be exponentially richer then you.

Tested negative that is most great, I pray that you get billions and I get none.

Regards Tony