Abolition of Alcohol

[TransmutingSoul]

You clearly don't understand alcoholism. It is NOT A CHOICE. Any more than cancer is a choice. There is no "putting your mind to it". For many, there IS NO CURE. They will live until they die, alcoholic. We can kill them, or we can ease their suffering (and the suffering they cause others), and that's about it.

Not sure you have considered what you offered. But now you have posted that comment, that offers many people in the future will fall prey to the same addiction and destroy lives an families, a comment that really reflects the purpose of this OP, how many would happily give up their couple of responsible drinks, to help all those future victims out?

Regards Tony

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Indiana is basically the same way. It's a ton of churches and bars. Yeah, some people have problems. But most don't. Emphasizing responsible consumption is crucial.

Every county in Wisconsin has a high percentage of excessive drinkers

I probably wouldn't like Indiana either, but look at this map for drinking. Wisconsin is a big blue abyss. 1 of 4 people here, statewide

 

[PureX]

Not sure you have considered what you offered. But now you have posted that comment, that offers many people in the future will fall prey to the same addiction and destroy lives an families, a comment that really reflects the purpose of this OP, how many would happily give up their couple of responsible drinks, to help all those future victims out?

Regards Tony

Their giving up responsible drinking will not help an alcoholic get or stay sober.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not sure you have considered what you offered. But now you have posted that comment, that offers many people in the future will fall prey to the same addiction and destroy lives an families, a comment that really reflects the purpose of this OP, how many would happily give up their couple of responsible drinks, to help all those future victims out?

Regards Tony

Many people in the future will fall pray to religious extremists and cults that destroy lives and families. Will you happily give up your moderate* religion to help these future victims out?


*Actually I'm not so sure that it's moderate, but for argument's sake.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Education will not abolish alcohol consumption. Neither will prohibition (religious or secular). So the answer is that it cannot be abolished.

Most people can use and enjoy alcohol responsibly. So for them, and us, it's not a problem. Abolition would be an unnecessary and unjust imposition. For those others who cannot, and will not use it responsibly, there is only so much we can do. We can help them to abstain once they choose to try. And we can try to provide a safe environment for them when they continue to abuse alcohol, but that's about all we can do.

I think cultural shift, rather than regulation, can get rid of it. Cultural shift can do anything. There's a reason that wisconsin is solid blue on the map I posted, and that's that someone decided to promote alcohol culturally. The underwriters of culture engineered the choice

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well that is what unbridled liberty thinks.

But if they broke the law, it is the law.

Regards Tony

But this whole discussion has been about what the law ought to be.

Alcohol is generally legal. Why isn't your response to that "well, the law is the law"?

 

[PureX]

That was brought up many times in the replies to this thread, no need to repeat but to say it is the right thing to do for the good of all people and in the end, people will want to do the right thing for the good of all people.

May take a while though.

Regards Tony

Never gonna happen.

The problem is that your presumption is just plain wrong. Societal abstinence will not solve the problem of alcoholism because the alcoholics will not abstain, and will simply make their own if they cannot otherwise obtain it. And you will have imposed abstinence on everyone else for no reason. Yet you keep repeating the point that if we all abstained from drinking alcohol, there will be no alcoholics. But "we all" will never abstain from drinking alcohol. Some would and some would not. And the alcoholics certainly would not. So your whole abstinence premise is a failure. It does not realistically address the problem.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well that is what unbridled liberty thinks.

But if they broke the law, it is the law.

Regards Tony

And have their entire life ruined. They are non violent but put in jail, fired, evicted, disqualified from many benefits, and society won't want to gibe them a second chance because these people have a criminal record.
There is nothing good or just or desirable about this.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Every county in Wisconsin has a high percentage of excessive drinkers

I probably wouldn't like Indiana either, but look at this map for drinking. Wisconsin is a big blue abyss. 1 of 4 people here, statewide

So, because 25% have a problem you'd rather end it all for 100%, punish the 75% who consume responsibly, all just to avoid teaching responsible consumption and force the 25% into speakeasies and bathtub gin?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Their giving up responsible drinking will not help an alcoholic get or stay sober.

That is where we have a different frame of reference.

I beleive all actions we take, for the good of all, do have a positive reverberation through humanity. I see our mind is connected and we all draw upon the same human spirit.

That is why we are asked to become one in thought by the Messengers, as to reach our full potential we need to work together as if we are One Soul in one body.

That bond starts between husband and wife, on to family, community, city, nation and now the world.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Many people in the future will fall pray to religious extremists and cults that destroy lives and families. Will you happily give up your moderate* religion to help these future victims out?

*Actually I'm not so sure that it's moderate, but for argument's sake.

Persecution comes from individual choices and extremests come in all shapes and forms.

The only way to prevent that is stop being human and to becone one in Spirit.

I see that is also the answer to this OP, we need to become one in abstaining, by our own free choice, to help all others.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But this whole discussion has been about what the law ought to be.

Alcohol is generally legal. Why isn't your response to that "well, the law is the law"?

Oh boy.... Circles.

Regards Tony

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Persecution comes from individual choices and extremests come in all shapes and forms.

The only way to prevent that is stop being human and to becone one in Spirit.

Indeed. In fact, some people are so extremist that they'll try to impose their personal views on others through legislation.

I see that is also the answer to this OP, we need to become one in abstaining, by our own free choice, to help all others.

Abstaining... from religion or alcohol?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Never gonna happen.

The problem is that your presumption is just plain wrong. Societal abstinence will not solve the problem of alcoholism because the alcoholics will not abstain, and will simply make their own if they cannot otherwise obtain it. And you will have imposed abstinence on everyone else for no reason. Yet you keep repeating the point that if we all abstained from drinking alcohol, there will be no alcoholics. But "we all" will never abstain from drinking alcohol. Some would and some would not. And the alcoholics certainly would not. So your whole abstinence premise is a failure. It does not realistically address the problem.

I had a good friend that was a Councillor of addiction to drug and alcohol.

He visited us and noticed the effort that was being undertaken by quite a few of us to help the addicted in our town in the late 1980's and early 1990's. At that time it was nearly all Alcohol related.

He advised us then, leave that to the experts as the percentage that can change will be minimal. He advised us to start educating the children, as that is the only way to save the vast majority.

Prevention is better than a cure, it is the real Elixer.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And have their entire life ruined. They are non violent but put in jail, fired, evicted, disqualified from many benefits, and society won't want to gibe them a second chance because these people have a criminal record.
There is nothing good or just or desirable about this.

So let's educate the children of those consequences.

The issue here is, that this lesson has to start at home, from prior to conception, so are we starting to identify why there is a vicious circle?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Indeed. In fact, some people are so extremist that they'll try to impose their personal views on others through legislation.

Luckily that is the last thing a Baha'i would do.

This thread is about what the world will choose as a whole on the subject of alcohol consumption.

That is what this OP is about, do our current choices need to be examined?

Regards Tony

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So let's educate the children of those consequences.

The issue here is, that this lesson has to start at home, from prior to conception, so are we starting to identify why there is a vicious circle?

Regards Tony

You can't educate someone prior to conception.
And, really, it needs to start in school because we can't depend on all parents to discuss all important topics with their children. Some parents just aren't going to know the information, some have wrong information, and some just don't have those discussions (like how a minority of parents have a sex talk with their kids).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Luckily that is the last thing a Baha'i would do.

Is it? Your OP talked about "abolishing" alcohol.

This thread is about what the world will choose as a whole on the subject of alcohol consumption.

That is what this OP is about, do our current choices need to be examined?

And my choice is to give each person latitude to decide for themselves: people who choose not to drink should be free to do so, and people who consume alcohol responsibly should be free to do so.

You disagree... and it's still not clear why, and it's still not clear that you recognize the hypocrisy in your position (which I've been trying to get at with my comparisons between alcohol and religion).

 

[ecco]

Sorry if my arguments are getting a little less cohesive, I am starting to run out of steam on this topic

Perhaps you should stop treating posting here as a drinking game. Taking a shot with each post can lead to a reduction in cohesiveness and coherence also.

 

[ecco]

Well that is what unbridled liberty thinks.

But if they broke the law, it is the law.

It was against the law for a black woman in the south to sit in the front of a bus.

What's your point?