Abolition of Alcohol

[John53]

That is not the trend with a lot of people, they can not stop at a few.

Regards Tony

Should that mean the many who can are punished for the poor judgement of others?

 

[John53]

Can I have a non alcohol beer please

Certainly

 

[Spirit of Light]

This, I think betrays the usual error in thinking of so many teetotallers. You present a false antithesis: either abstaining, or getting drunk. The majority of us are perfectly capable of enjoying a drink without getting drunk.

From i was 18 to 20 i was drinking alcohol sometimes but it was only one time i got drunk, and it was on purpose to see how it felt, my comment was not to critique recreation drinking that is not a problem.

 

[Windwalker]

One of the teachings of the Baha'i Faith is not partaking of Alcohol.

The bounties of taking this path are numerous, but I hear people say it can not or will not happen. I am optimistic, I see we can once and for all stop partaking of alcoholic beverages.

This story shows that it is possible, that the trend of people giving up alcohol is increasing.

Regards Tony

I think it's a good thing to encourage people towards healthy life practices. Alcohol is one of those things that can become easily abused, if it becomes too much a part of one's life. Having to have a glass of booze in your hand in all social situations, having to have it around to relax, etc., can create a dependency of it.

There are those who can pick it up and drop it whenever they want, like those who can smoke a couple cigarettes a week and not be addicted to, as opposed to those who can't live without them for long. They panic if they see they are out of cigarettes and all the stores are closed, for instance. Same thing with booze addition.

But the danger with alcohol is that it can cloud our own judgements, and people can say to themselves, "I don't need this. I just like it. I can stop it anytime I want". Some can, but what percentage that say that actually can? I like what that woman in the video said after finding herself suffering from a bad hangover one time, "I decided to take 3 months off and see what alcohol was really doing to my mind, how it's affecting me, and see if I can socialize without it."

That's a great test! If someone is a regular drinker, having alcohol every night, for instance, try taking a 3 month break from it and see how easier or hard it is to actually do that. If the mere thought of that gives you anxiety, you might wish to consider that as an indication there may be a dependency that has crept in.

I'm all for awareness of the dangers for developing addictions, as addiction is a process that starts off simple and gets worse, and alcohol has a way of surpressing our natural self-awareness. It makes it really easy to lie to ourselves, when we're so rewarded by using the substance to alter our moods like that. But education and promoting good mental and physcial health practices is very different from prohibition.

Here's the problem with prohibition, Tony. It doesn't work. The "war on drugs" is proven ineffective. The war on drugs is simply prohobition 2.0. And it's a failed approach. Here's a good article that goes into why, and suggests far more effective approaches, even it it seems counter-intuitive:

First, do no harm: An argument for a radical new paradigm for treating addiction

One last thing, in A.A.'s Twelve Traditions, Tradition 10, it explains how that the Washingtonians failed as a group to help alcoholics because they became a tool for politicians supporting prohibition. Prohibition is a political matter, and you can't force sobriety on people. They have to choose for themselves.

That's why the Washingtonians are gone, yet AA survives and thrives and is helping alcoholics recover from their addiction. You don't unscrew a screw, with a hammer.

 

[exchemist]

I think it's a good thing to encourage people towards healthy life practices. Alcohol is one of those things that can become easily abused, if it becomes too much a part of one's life. Having to have a glass of booze in your hand in all social situations, having to have it around to relax, etc., can create a dependency of it.

There are those who can pick it up and drop it whenever they want, like those who can smoke a couple cigarettes a week and not be addicted to, as opposed to those who can't live without them for long. They panic if they see they are out of cigarettes and all the stores are closed, for instance. Same thing with booze addition.

But the danger with alcohol is that it can cloud our own judgements, and people can say to themselves, "I don't need this. I just like it. I can stop it anytime I want". Some can, but what percentage that say that actually can? I like what that woman in the video said after finding herself suffering from a bad hangover one time, "I decided to take 3 months off and see what alcohol was really doing to my mind, how it's affecting me, and see if I can socialize without it."

That's a great test! If someone is a regular drinker, having alcohol every night, for instance, try taking a 3 month break from it and see how easier or hard it is to actually do that. If the mere thought of that gives you anxiety, you might wish to consider that as an indication there may be a dependency that has crept in.

I'm all for awareness of the dangers for developing addictions, as addiction is a process that starts off simple and gets worse, and alcohol has a way of surpressing our natural self-awareness. It makes it really easy to lie to ourselves, when we're so rewarded by using the substance to alter our moods like that. But education and promoting good mental and physcial health practices is very different from prohibition.

Here's the problem with prohibition, Tony. It doesn't work. The "war on drugs" is proven ineffective. The war on drugs is simply prohobition 2.0. And it's a failed approach. Here's a good article that goes into why, and suggests far more effective approaches, even it it seems counter-intuitive:

First, do no harm: An argument for a radical new paradigm for treating addiction

One last thing, in A.A.'s Twelve Traditions,
Tradition 10, it explains how that the Washingtonians failed as a group to help alcoholics because they became a tool for politicians supporting prohibition. Prohibition is a political matter, and you can't force sobriety on people. They have to choose for themselves. That's why the Washingtonians are gone, yet AA survives and thrives.

Strongly agree about prohibition. The right approach has to be education and resulting social expectation, as with drinking and driving. It needs to be uncool to get drunk. In many S European cultures, where wine is habitually drunk with a meal, (and where wine originated) it already has been like that for ages. It is the N European culture of drinking on any empty stomach that causes a bad attitude to alcohol and a lot of drunkenness.

 

[pearl]

This to me is an important topic and will eventually be a topic discussed around the world because of the dire consequences this drug of choice inflicts upon the individual, the family, the community, the Nation and on to the entire body of humanity.

As far as abolishing is concerned, been there done that, didn't work in the US. I remember the stories my mother talked about her and her cousin (a church organist) driving up to Canada wearing the big coats with the extra-large pockets and bringing back the alcohol, and the old 'bathtub gin'.
People drink for many reasons beyond just the enjoyment; habitual, to forget etc.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This, I think betrays the usual error in thinking of so many teetotallers. You present a false antithesis: either abstaining, or getting drunk. The majority of us are perfectly capable of enjoying a drink without getting drunk.

It is like all substances that can be abused, we must help people that are prone to addiction, for whatever reasons they may abuse a substance, with this it is easy, we choose not to make it.

I see it just becomes habit, nature and nurture aid in its use. We need to show our children that it is not needed and by not having it made and available, we can prevent another potential addiction.

There are now bars that serve all non alcohol beverages, so time will tell if that trend will become a vast majority.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Should that mean the many who can are punished for the poor judgement of others?

It is not a punishment, it is a wise and compassionate choice that transcends self motive.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Here's the problem with prohibition, Tony. It doesn't work. The "war on drugs" is proven ineffective. The war on drugs is simply prohobition 2.0. And it's a failed approach. Here's a good article that goes into why, and suggests far more effective approaches, even it it seems counter-intuitive:

I see it will have to be a choice the majority will make, I do not know how any future law would be formulated and enforced, but my guess it would have compassionate foundations.

This is advice we have in the Baha'i Writings.

"O ye, God’s loved ones! Experience hath shown greatly the renouncing of smoking, of intoxicating drink, and of opium, conduceth to health and vigour, to the expansion and keenness of the mind and to bodily strength......." – Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 150.

Drugs are another story, but a definite enforcement of no recreational use is required, the use of opium is strongly worded in the Baha'i writings

"As to opium, it is foul and accursed. God protect us from the punishment He inflicteth on the user. According to the explicit Text of the Most Holy Book, it is forbidden, and its use is utterly condemned. Reason showeth that smoking opium is a kind of insanity, and experience attesteth that the user is completely cut off from the human kingdom. May God protect all against the perpetration of an act so hideous as this, an act which layeth in ruins the very foundation of what it is to be human, and which causeth the user to be dispossessed for ever and ever. For opium fasteneth on the soul so that the user’s conscience dieth, his mind is blotted away, his perceptions are eroded. It turneth the living into the dead. It quencheth the natural heat.

No greater harm can be conceived than that which opium inflicteth. Fortunate are they who never even speak the name of it; then think how wretched is the user.

O ye lovers of God! In this, the cycle of Almighty God, violence and force, constraint and oppression, are one and all condemned. It is, however, mandatory that the use of opium be prevented by any means whatsoever, that perchance the human race may be delivered from this most powerful of plagues. And otherwise, woe and misery to whoso falleth short of his duty to his Lord." – Abdu’l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, pp. 148-149.

That has been the case opiates have become a plague.

The way forward is a challenge, this has been offered to consider
A Baha'i Perspective on Drug Abuse Prevention

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

As far as abolishing is concerned, been there done that, didn't work in the US. I remember the stories my mother talked about her and her cousin (a church organist) driving up to Canada wearing the big coats with the extra-large pockets and bringing back the alcohol, and the old 'bathtub gin'.
People drink for many reasons beyond just the enjoyment; habitual, to forget etc.

Yes nature and nurture are a bug contributing factor.

This has been offered as a way to change our frames of references on these subjects.

A Baha'i Perspective on Drug Abuse Prevention

Regards Tony

 

[Windwalker]

I see it will have to be a choice the majority will make, I do not know how any future law would be formulated and enforced, but my guess it would have compassionate foundations.

It doesn't matter if a majority can be convinced. We've already had that happen in this ineffective, and wrongheaded "war on drugs" and prohibition itself. The majority can be convinced to go along with entirely misguided ideas.

This is advice we have in the Baha'i Writings.

"O ye, God’s loved ones! Experience hath shown greatly the renouncing of smoking, of intoxicating drink, and of opium, conduceth to health and vigour, to the expansion and keenness of the mind and to bodily strength......." – Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 150.

I have no problem with these as admonitions, or even rules of membership as being part of a spiritual community. I agree that drug use can interfere with spiritual growth. Many, if not most spiritual communities have restrictions on these things. But membership in those is entirely voluntarily to begin with, or one may choose to leave if it doesn't suit them when they are adults.

Drugs are another story, but a definite enforcement of no recreational use is required, the use of opium is strongly worded in the Baha'i writings

Is the Baha'i faith meant to be a theocracy and imposes its views and rules for members upon non-members? Then it shouldn't really matter if they have a strong opinion about it. It doesn't apply to ramming those views down outsider's throats, does it? Is the Baha'i faith meant to be a form of government over a diverse society of people of other faiths and values, like a democracy is?

Do you see theocracies as better than democracies? I think history shows what theocracies can look like. Just ask those under the Taliban rule.

Bottom line, for those who choose to pursue the Divine in their lives, these admonishments, or even prohibitions for its followers are fine. But to run a diverse society forcing these principles upon the masses who don't share those same goals or values, is tyranny. God is always by invitation. Never by force. Prohibition is force.

If you wish to force people to be healthy, then do you plan to put coach potatoes in prison? Do you plan to put people who are overweight behind bars? Why stop at booze? Let's lock everyone up who harms themselves through unhealthy habits. Too many hours in online forums? Off to jail with you!

 

[Sheldon]

This to me is an important topic and will eventually be a topic discussed around the world because of the dire consequences this drug of choice inflicts upon the individual, the family, the community, the Nation and on to the entire body of humanity.

I unfortunately live in a Nation that pride themselves on getting drunk, and that mentality is expanding as the world is locked down.

I long for the day when the business of Alcohol is seen for what it has become, a killer of humanity.

So this OP shows my stance, that alcoholic beverages are not needed they are a drug of choice and all recreational drugs need to be Abolished. America tried, so what will it take?

What is your stance, what is your view?

Edit I added this so the intent of this OP is known, as my wording might not have shown that is the case.

"So this OP is all about choice and this OP is to explore why we would choose to abstain, if there was no law, or if we may again consider that a law is needed."

Regards Tony

If you don't want a drink then don't drink, you don't get to tell others how to live their lives. There are already laws controlling the consumption of alcohol, and a person is as culpable for what they do when they have had a drink, as when they have not. How about a ban on religion, it's done far more harm and killed far more people than alcohol?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Prohibition is force. If you wish to force people to be healthy, then do you plan to put coach potatoes in prison? Do you plan to put people who are overweight behind bars? Why stop at booze? Let's lock everyone up who harms themselves through unhealthy habits.

That was answered in the link I posted as to how it may be approached by a Baha'i perspective.

Education.

Regards Tony

 

[Windwalker]

That was answered in the link I posted as to how it may be approached by a Baha'i perspective.

Education.

Regards Tony

Great, education I can totally get behind. The choice is up to them. Prohibition is talking away their choice. And it does not work. Education does. Prohibition does not.

 

[Sheldon]

I am lucky in a way that I came from drinking Alcohol into a choice to abolish it from my life.

I am lucky in always having enjoyed a drink, and still do. I agree with Churchill on this one, as I have had far more from alcohol, than alcohol has had from me.

To quote WC Fields, "Once in the wilds of Afghanistan we lost our corkscrew. It was Hell, and we had to live on nothing but food and water for weeks."

I'm drinking an Australian Shiraz at the minute, with my dinner. I had a small vodka loosener beforehand. I've cleared away the dishes and not to decide, more wine or another vodka? Wine I think...

 

[Sheldon]

That was answered in the link I posted as to how it may be approached by a Baha'i perspective.

Education.

Regards Tony

They're your beliefs, you don't get to force them onto others.

 

[John53]

It is not a punishment, it is a wise and compassionate choice that transcends self motive.

Regards Tony

No it's not, it would be forcing your personal opinion on others. If we go down that road where does it end?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If you don't want a drink then don't drink, you don't get to tell others how to live their lives. There are already laws controlling the consumption of alcohol, and a person is as culpable for what they do when they have had a drink, as when they have not. How about a ban on religion, it's done far more harm and killed far more people than alcohol?

What are the laws controlling the consumption of alcohol?

I wonder why Law enforcement, taxi drivers and a lot of spouses fear certain nights of the week.

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

Great, education I can totally get behind. The choice is up to them. Prohibition is talking away their choice. And it does not work. Education does. Prohibition does not.

We are in agreement, prohibition in the US was an unmitigated disaster, that gave a massive opportunity to organised crime, and the so called war on drugs is doing the same. Time for a more objective and candid look at what a substance does, and what the risks are, with all the hysterical bs removed.

 

[Sheldon]

It is not a punishment, it is a wise and compassionate choice that transcends self motive.

Nonsense, you want to force your bigoted religious views onto others, this is another clear example of why religion and state should be separate.