Abortion and the death penalty

[ChristineM]

Although i wouldn't have an abortion myself under any non life threatening circumstances i reserve the right to support any womans right to freedom of choice.

Death penalty on the other hand, not without 100% proof the perpetrator was guilty and i am not sure technology is such that 100% prove is available.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I support abortion on demand for medical consent and body autonomy reasons. I would sooner mandate vegetarianism than make abortions criminal, since a cow or chicken has a greater capacity to suffer and more intelligence than a fetus, and I see no reason one should be valued over the other.

 

[We Never Know]

I support abortion if the girl got pregnant by rape, incest, molestation, or is under age(17 and less).
I don't support it for adults who go sleep around without protection like its a contest and should know better.

The death penalty I support if there is scientific, forensic and DNA evidence that shows no doubt.
If its only circumstantial and/or questionable evidence then I don't support it.

You?

Several brlought up the strength of the evidence/100%. I did list
scientific, forensic and DNA evidence.
(By the way DNA evidence has freed several hundred wrongly convicted people)

However if you saw for yourself, with your own eyes, John Doe murder a family member, would that be 100%?

 

[ChristineM]

Several brlought up the strength of the evidence/100%. I did list
scientific, forensic and DNA evidence.
(By the way DNA evidence has freed several hundred wrongly convicted people)

However if you saw for yourself, with your own eyes, John Doe murder a family member, would that be 100%?

Human perception can dodgy. At uni we did an experiment (several actually) on what is known as "the bystander effect" it shows how fallible people are at observations


I would say more than one witness in full agreement should be required as well as some form if media, cctv for example.

And then the conditions would need to be taken onto account, premeditated, provoked, accidental etc.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I support abortion if the girl got pregnant by rape, incest, molestation, or is under age(17 and less).

How does rape justify abortion?

The mother is healthy so is the child. The only difference is the mother unintentional conception.

Mother's take care of their children while they have gone through a lot of trauma...with help and support network, their child can still grow up to live healthy with the support given to them.

I wouldn't want my mother to see me as a rape baby but I deserve life regardless how she sees me and why.

How is abortion justified by rape?

 

[ChristineM]

How does rape justify abortion?

The mother is healthy so is the child. The only difference is the mother unintentional conception.

Mother's take care of their children while they have gone through a lot of trauma...with help and support network, their child can still grow up to live healthy with the support given to them.

I wouldn't want my mother to see me as a rape baby but I deserve life regardless how she sees me and why.

How is abortion justified by rape?

Have you ever been pregnant by rape?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Have you ever been pregnant by rape?

That doesn't tell me your point.

How is abortion justified by rape?

1. The mother and child are healthy
2. The mother can carry the baby to term
3. The mother can give the baby for adoption
4. The mother can give the baby to the hospital to relieve custody
5. The mother can give the baby to another family member to raise
6. The mother can take care of the child in many circumstances

7. The child is fully healthy
8. The child just needs a care taker in worse case scenario
9. The child can grow up healthy
10. The child has the choice to find his mother (and hopefully the mother her child)

What does it say about the mother who values her child solely based on what happened to her and not value the child as Her child?

Trauma can cause you to make decisions that without that incident or later in life you would have never made otherwise.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That doesn't tell me your point.

How is abortion justified by rape?

1. The mother and child is healthy
2. The mother can carry the baby to term
3. The mother can give the baby for adoption
4. The mother can give the baby to the hospital to relieve custody
5. The mother can give the baby to another family member to raise
6. The mother can take care of the child in many circumstances

7. The child is fully healthy
8. The child just needs a care taker at worse case scenario
9. The child can grow up healthy
10. The child has the choice to find his mother (and hopefully the mother her child)

What does it say about the mother who values her child soley based on what happened to her and not value the child as Her child?

Trauma can cause you to make decisions that without that incident or later in life you would have never made otherwise.

I knew a girl in high school who was pregnant from rape. She was a lesbian, too. But she was so happy about the baby. I guess that was her way of bringing something positive out of something so negative. Then sometimes the abortion itself becomes a source of trauma. I knew another girl in high school (we were older teens, mind you, not 13 or 14) who had an abortion and she told me, through tears, that she regretted it every day of her life. Years later, I came across her on social media. She had had a son and looked so happy.

 

[ChristineM]

That doesn't tell me your point.

How is abortion justified by rape?

1. The mother and child is healthy
2. The mother can carry the baby to term
3. The mother can give the baby for adoption
4. The mother can give the baby to the hospital to relieve custody
5. The mother can give the baby to another family member to raise
6. The mother can take care of the child in many circumstances

7. The child is fully healthy
8. The child just needs a care taker at worse case scenario
9. The child can grow up healthy
10. The child has the choice to find his mother (and hopefully the other her child)

What does it say about the mother who values her child soley based on what happened to her and not value the child as Her child?

Trauma can cause you to make decisions that without that incident or later in life you would have never made otherwise.

So i take that as a simple "no" then. Expected

First the rape itself is a violation, it is more than unintentional, it is often violent, painful, emotionally horrific.

The victim will remember this intrusion for the term of her pregnancy and for life. Revulsion and stigma will follow her.

It is often the case that the rapist is diseased, will pass on the disease which may affect the foetus, possibly even life threatening.

You make a long list of what the mother (victim of violence) can do after the child is born with no thought to the 9 months of horror and mental torture the victim must endure to satisfy any of your list

Ultimately it is the choice of the victim whether to continue the pregnancy or not, aborting a pregnancy from rape is one of the most difficult decisions a woman can make

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I would tend to agree.
Imo the abortion issue often comes down to a power trip. I’m not suggesting that anti choicers are in it just to control women. I think most are sincere in their beliefs.
But it is a tad convenient that it just happens to revolve around a woman’s bodily autonomy

Maybe for some, but Christianity is actually very opposed to abortion and has been from ancient times. The Didache, a 1st century Christian catechism, bans abortion for believers. Most are just following the teachings of their religion. When I went to pro-life events, they were Christian and most people there were either mothers with their children or young people. We would be holding signs with "stand for life" or something like that on them, and people would drive by, cussing us out, flipping us off and throwing Nazi salutes. Mind you, recall the sort of crowd I described, that is being subjected to this.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. if the girl got pregnant by rape, incest, molestation, or is under age(17 and less).

In Indian law, there is no age regulation (like you said 17 or less). Even if the woman is older and pregnant because of rape or incest, she is allowed abortion up to the 20th week of pregnancy. If the pregnancy is older than 20 weeks, then medical opinion is necessary for the safety of the woman.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

My post #6 says "no." You need to be direct in your questions.

So i take that as a simple "no" then. Expected

First the rape itself is a violation, it is more than unintentional, it is often violent, painful, emotionally horrific.

No. Of course not. I am glad.

Yes. I know this.

The victim will remember this intrusion for the term of her pregnancy and for life. Revulsion and stigma will follow her.

Of course. It's a traumatic experience. My traumatic experiences where prolonged not isolated like rape so different perspectives-doesn't excuse my opinion.

It is often the case that the rapist is diseased, will pass on the disease which may affect the foetus, possibly even life threatening.

"May"... That's assuming that the rapist has a disease to spread. The issue is not the disease that may make the fetus at risk of "death" but the fact that one would have an abortion due to rape in and of itself.

You make a long list of what the mother (victim of violence) can do after the child is born with no thought to the 9 months of horror and mental torture the victim must endure to satisfy any of your list.

But what does this trauma and torture have to do with the child who is healthy (no disease) and that can be carried to term?

If every mother aborted their child because of her traumatic experience (rape or otherwise), it would be a regular procedure without any cause of moral, legal, and medical debate.

Ultimately it is the choice of the victim whether to continue the pregnancy or not, aborting a pregnancy from rape is one of the most difficult decisions a woman can make

The choice of the victim is a legal issue not a moral one.

Yes, it is difficult. I would assume like in my post there would be some legal, medical, and personal consultation involved before someone in such trauma can make a decision to begin with.

I gave in my other post an example of self-defense. I disagree with killing of any type. If someone kills in self-defense it is by their "instinct" not their decision. So, I don't disagree (rather) with their instinct just the fact they killed another human being (the justification is fine but I don't agree with the action-just like war is a justification for death, but no soldier would kill someone just because).

Likewise, I'd assume a mother who went through trauma may make a decision to abort her child out of instinct but if she was not in a traumatic decision and of sound mind, I doubt she would make that choice intentionally.

Instincts and trauma doesn't justify the morality of killing and aborting... medical and legal justifications, sure but I always wondered why anyone's morals would be affected by the justification of killing and aborting based on external circumstances. A soldier wouldn't value killing another human being just because he had to do so in war. A victim wouldn't value killing a human being if he didn't have to do it in self-defense. A mother would not need to value aborting if "she, her doctor, and so forth felt" she was not in sound mind to make a decision otherwise.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The victim will remember this intrusion for the term of her pregnancy and for life. Revulsion and stigma will follow her.

That's not true for all. People handle trauma differently because we're different people. Like the girl I knew who was raped and got pregnant from it. She was happy about the baby. Her experience is valid, too.

 

[ChristineM]

No. Of course not. I am glad.

Walk a mile in my shoes before dictating what i (or any victim if rape) can do with their body

Of course. It's a traumatic experience. My traumatic experiences where prolonged not isolated like rape so different perspectives-doesn't excuse my opinion.

Isolated??? You really have no idea do you? Once you have been raped you stay raped for life, some learn to live with it, some don't.

But what does this trauma and torture have to do with the child who is healthy (no disease) and that can be carried to term?

What does that trauma have to do with the life of the victim?

The choice of the victim is a legal issue not a moral one.

There are many issues involved including the moral issue

"May"... That's assuming that the rapist has a disease to spread. The issue is not the disease that may make the fetus at risk of "death" but the fact that one would have an abortion due to rape in and of itself.

Can you guarantee no disease?
Disease is one of several issues

But what does this trauma and torture have to do with the child who is healthy (no disease) and that can be carried to term?

You are repeating yourself

If every mother aborted their child because of her traumatic experience (rape or otherwise), it would be a regular procedure without any cause of moral, legal, and medical debate.

We are not talking every mother, we are talking victim's of rape and there i leave it becsuse it is getting biring

 

[ADigitalArtist]

*mod post* A reminder that this is a discussion forum, not a debate forum. State your view but don't get into rebuttal type exchanges *mod post*

 

[ChristineM]

That's not true for all. People handle trauma differently because we're different people. Like the girl I knew who was raped and got pregnant from it. She was happy about the baby. Her experience is valid, too.

Yes every one is different, i personally decided to keep the child but i till have nightmares about the rape. The point is, it is up to the victim to decide whether to keep the child or abort. Not pro lifers who make the choice for them based on religion

 

[We Never Know]

*mod post* A reminder that this is a discussion forum, not a debate forum. State your view but don't get into rebuttal type exchanges *mod post*

Thanks and Yes. I posted it here so people could freely give their opinion without having to debate their opinion. Everyone has and opinion with some similar and others opposite. I like seeking opinions because its an insight of how others think differently than myself.

However if others would rather debate it, maybe move it to a debate forum and let them have it.

 

[Heyo]

I support abortion if the girl got pregnant by rape, incest, molestation, or is under age(17 and less).
I don't support it for adults who go sleep around without protection like its a contest and should know better.

The death penalty I support if there is scientific, forensic and DNA evidence that shows no doubt.
If its only circumstantial and/or questionable evidence then I don't support it.

You?

Interesting that you asked those two questions together. And I think they belong together as both are about ending a life. (Yes, a foetus is alive, although not a person.)
Imo capital punishment is never justified.
Abortion is a bit trickier. It's of course always justified for medical reasons. Then there is the conflict between the right to bodily autonomy of the potential mother and, perhaps a right to live for the foetus. (Morally, as a right to live judicially only applies to people.) And then there is the practical reason that our western cultures are not very friendly to young mothers and their children. Imo we should first create a society where there is no material incentive for an abortion before we even think about making them illegal.
So, I can somewhat understand a position of anti death penalty and pro choice but anti choice and pro death penalty is absolutely hypocritical.
The other combinations are at least consistent.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Walk a mile in my shoes before dictating what i (or any victim if rape) can do with their body

You're getting my opinion mixed up. I said I dislike abortion, not some of the justifications for most of it.

I also said I'm looking at this from a moral standpoint. Legal and medical necessities (like self defense and maybe because of the child's critical health) are justified that doesn't mean I support the abortion itself.

I also did not mention any opinion about telling what mother's should do or not do with their bodies.

Isolated??? You really have no idea do you? Once you have been raped you stay raped for life, some learn to live with it, some don't.

I'm glad I am ignorant of being raped. I would never want to be raped just to understand your (or whomever you may be referring to) perspective on rape experiences and how they affect your decision to abort.

Like in another post (I think from Saint) each person's traumatic experiences affect the person differently.

Also, I said the decision to abort isn't always instinctive. There are psychological, some religious, medical, and patient consultations involved before that decision is even made.

Likewise, it would be very inappropriate that a mother would decide to have an abortion (and any treatment) when she is not of sound mind.

What does that trauma have to do with the life of the victim?

You mentioned that trauma (what happens in the womb etc) of a rape victim is a justification for abortion.

I can look it up, but that's what you said (wasn't verbatim).

There are many issues involved including the moral issue

Yes. Which causes trauma (above).

Can you guarantee no disease?
Disease is one of several issues

No. That's not the point. Maybe is not definite. Doctors would have to take that into consideration depending on the health of the mother and the child Not because of possibilities.

You are repeating yourself

I tend to do that when you (and others) repeat the same answer in different words as if, how did Einstein say, saying the same defense over and over again expecting a different result.

We are not talking every mother, we are talking victim's of rape and there i leave it becsuse it is getting biring

I never said "every mother."

I said that mothers (rape victims per the context of this thread) who have been raped is not a justification to have an abortion. I understand if the health of the child is involved. However, not just because she was raped (hence other alternatives to abortion I've already listed).

 

[ChristineM]

@Unveiled Artist

I am not going on with this and i will give one example why...

Post 32

If every mother aborted their child because of her traumatic experience

Post 39

never said "every mother."

I cannot discuss with that sort of contradiction