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Abortion Debate (US)

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I have been present for four births. I know being pregnant isn't easy.
But you haven't actually been pregnant. Had your entire body changed permanently? Experienced post-partum depression?

At least you recognize it isn't easy.

It's a whole lot easier than living with constant guilt because you killed your own child, however.
Well again, you wouldn't actually know that.
Some are probably pretty relieved, especially those whose pregnancy would have been detrimental to their health.

And a person is still a person no matter how small.
Blastocysts/zygotes/fetuses aren't just miniature adults.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Obviously you don't know what "against abortion" means. It means no one has the right to kill their unborn baby.

Of course it is not a "baby". You once again demonstrate how empty your arguments are by using improper terminology. Now you may believe that it is a baby. That only means that you should not have an abortion. Hey! That should be easy for you.

And even if it was a "baby" a woman still has bodily autonomy. She can evict it at will.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
Why is it that many decry "government overreach" and yet want that same government to tell a woman what she must do with that which is inside her?
 

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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
There are certain ethical standards that are fairly universal. Not harming the innocent is one of those.
Unfortunately, not forcing women to have children against her will hasn't been close to universally held. This thread - and your posts in particular - are evidence that many still see cis women and trans men as second-class citizens.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Of course it is not a "baby". You once again demonstrate how empty your arguments are by using improper terminology. Now you may believe that it is a baby. That only means that you should not have an abortion. Hey! That should be easy for you.

And even if it was a "baby" a woman still has bodily autonomy. She can evict it at will.
You mean kill him or her ..why do you use incorrect terminology?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You mean kill him or her ..why do you use incorrect terminology?
Is it even really a him or a her at that point?

If you want to present a valid argument you should really try to argue rationally. But of course if you do you have no argument. It sucks to be trapped on the wrong side of an issue by one's personal beliefs.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
“pain receptors appear around the mouth at 4 to 5 weeks post-fertilization, followed by the development of nerve fibers, which carry stimuli to the brain. Around 6 weeks post-fertilization, the unborn child first responds to touch. By 18 weeks post-fertilization, pain receptors have appeared throughout the body.”

The unborn child? I had to look at your source, since I recognized the emotive language of the anti-choice movement. The same source contained this: "In our culture, there are those who will have more compassion for animals than for babies who are given a death sentence because of their age and location. We will continue to fight until every one of these vulnerable preborn babies are protected—by our laws and our culture. It is not enough to recognize that these children feel pain when aborted; we must empower those around us to make life-affirming choices. Only then will our nation become one where it is safe to be in the womb."

Furthermore, she cites herself as a source of information. One should never take his science or any other conclusions from a tendentious source like this. Why? Because they are presented not to educate, but to indoctrinate. She's on a mission, and it isn't to teach. It's to prevent abortion. The presence of pain receptors by itself is not an indication of the capacity to suffer. Consciousness is required as well.

We also know that there is no question, biologically speaking, about whether an unborn child can feel pain by 20 weeks post-fertilization at the very latest, since by then they have the full anatomy to process pain and also the neurobiology to transmit painful sensations to the brain and to perceive pain.

Same counterargument. No consciousness, no pain, whatever the neural anatomy. A person undergoing general surgery has no pain despite an intact nervous system. A person who was alive moments ago also has an intact nervous system.

Studies show that babies can feel pain by their increased hormonal stress response and by wincing when they are exposed to painful stimuli.

Yet neither of those is a proxy for experiencing pain. They are physical reflexes. There still needs to be consciousness.

Interesting anecdote. I witnessed a colonoscopy of a patient who was anesthetized, yet was squirming and grimacing, even screaming at times. When he came to, he had no recollection of any discomfort. I'll bet had he seen a video of a similar reaction in another patient, he would have been afraid of the procedure for himself, because it's hard to ignore the outward manifestations of what would be experienced as suffering were there consciousness. But the fact remains: no consciousness, no suffering and no memory of suffering.

Have you never fallen asleep with a headache and awakened with it? Do you feel pain while unconscious? Your entire nervous system remains intact during sleep. Stimulate a neuron and evoke an action potential and the release of synaptic neurotransmitters. Whatever the chemistry of that headache is, it's the same during sleep if the headache is still there in the morning.

This is why we don't take our science from ideologues, even those with academic degrees. It's not about the accuracy of the facts included, which can be confirmed by fact-checking if in doubt. It's because of what is left out - anything and everything that weakens the argument. This is what converts it from education to indoctrination.

There are certain ethical standards that are fairly universal. Not harming the innocent is one of those.

Here's the anti-choice wheelhouse - emotive language, not science. That is what brings believers into the fold. I know, because I was there once, listening to it. The "factual" part of the church argument isn't scientific. It is religious - what God wants and forbids. The remainder are things like this: the innocent embryo. This isn't a trial, and guilt and innocence aren't relevant. It's also a category error. Nothing can be called innocent that can't have been guilty of something. An embryo is innocent like a peach one is about to pick, which will kill it. And if we were trying to convince people to criminalize picking peaches, we could call it an innocent peach.

Defenseless is a good one, too. Embryos are as defenseless as a peach.

I'll bet that the anti-choice people would call an embryo cute if people couldn't see what they look like. They would draw them as adorable babies for tap into that instinct notpresent when looking at something that resembles a shrimp with gills and a tail. "Cootchy-coo, little guy!"

no one has the right to kill their unborn baby.

And again. Babies are so adorable, so it's helpful to coopt a bit of that instinct by calling embryos babies. Poor, cute, innocent, defenseless babies! Oh no, not cute. Poor, innocent, defenseless babies.

Your values are not mine. They are for you, mine for me. However many times you write them out, they're still just your feelings. And your feelings have been manipulated. It's not a coincidence that they cluster where people have been indoctrinated with Christian doctrine, which is how it's imparted to those willing to believe it uncritically. That's for you. I come to my moral judgments via a different path, one that doesn't rely on received morals.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, I actually do.

I wrote, "Have you never fallen asleep with a headache and awakened with it? Do you feel pain while unconscious?"

Your answer is not credible because it's not possible. The times you felt pain, you were not fully unconscious. You may have been stuporous or obtunded ("half asleep"), but not unconscious. And if you got up in the morning with a memory of pain from the night before, you were conscious to some degree. Even if you only dreamt that you were in pain, remembered dreams are evidence of a low level of consciousness while having them.

why would you cheer about killing defenseless humans?

You just can't avoid emotive language, can you? What difference does it make to this argument that the embryos can't defend themselves? Would you find the act more palatable if the embryo were armed? That's how silly your claim is, although you might like to grant Second Amendment rights to embryos, since they're people to you as well.

As soon as I see that kind of emotive language, I cease taking its source seriously, like with your previous scientific link. That's for people susceptible to it.

You don't see the pro-choice contingent doing that. They're critical thinkers. They use scientific language, which is descriptive rather than emotive. And that's because the argument for choice isn't grounded in emotion. If that's all he had, the critical thinker wouldn't be making the argument.

You don't seem to recognize that judging by your use of the word cheer above. Abortion is a serious decision and a somber act. Nobody is cheering for it. They're fighting for the right of pregnant girls and women to choose it.
 

nameless1

New Member
Person 3 - why invite a person to enter into your house if you don't want them there in the first place?
Pregnancies don't always happen by invite. Embryos r lungless boneless and heartless. They are not people. The irs doesn't see them as people. Traffic cops dont see them as people, human rights watch doesn't see them as people. Amnesty doesn't see them as people. The American medical association doesn't see embryos as people.
Women shouldn't be punished for sex that guys usually seek out way more than women do. Its not women that seek out porn and prostitutes. And yet men get no punishment for oopsy Pregnancies.
What disgusting is the religious right insisting they're right about taking away my medical rights..and they don't care what well educated doctors think about the medical procedure. Antichoicers also don't care about that infant mortalities r highest in antichoice states. So is child poverty. Antichoice countries are generally places that not even the most passionate antichoicers would wanna visit
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Pregnancies don't always happen by invite. Embryos r lungless boneless and heartless. They are not people. The irs doesn't see them as people. Traffic cops dont see them as people, human rights watch doesn't see them as people. Amnesty doesn't see them as people. The American medical association doesn't see embryos as people.
Women shouldn't be punished for sex that guys usually seek out way more than women do. Its not women that seek out porn and prostitutes. And yet men get no punishment for oopsy Pregnancies.
What disgusting is the religious right insisting they're right about taking away my medical rights..and they don't care what well educated doctors think about the medical procedure. Antichoicers also don't care about that infant mortalities r highest in antichoice states. So is child poverty. Antichoice countries are generally places that not even the most passionate antichoicers would wanna visit



I agree that men should be punished. Not sure what your point is.
 
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