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Abortion - is it wrong?
- Thread starter nnmartin
- Start date
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Alceste
Vagabond
You're right! By which reasoning we are all best described as "compost".
Alceste
Vagabond
I'm not too interested in moral arguments, to be honest. As far as I am concerned, this is an intimately personal issue of taking a pragmatic and compassionate approach to women's health, not a speculative, impersonal ethical puzzle.
Given that human women always have and always will make every effort to avoid unexpected motherhood when they feel adequately disinclined towards it, the question of morality is moot. Catholics might as well ask whether it is moral for humans to walk upright.
Me Myself
Back to my username
It is also in our primal nature to fight what we see different, even other human beings. This is reflected in little and major things, like seeing badly people who disagree with you to full fledged wars.
Even though fighting against those who are different to us (this includes humans and is even specialyy directed to humans in the same way animals fight for territory) religion and general morality would still promote acceptance instead of killing each other out.
So saying it is natural for a woman to kill it´s child because she feels desperate because life takes her somewhere she doesn´t want to go is not a good moral argument.
When lifes are at stake, it becomes amoral argument
Drolefille
PolyPanGeekGirl
So fine, you consider it immoral. But all the practical reasons you dismissed earlier are why it shouldn't become illegal. So leave my rights, and the rights of all of us who find it to be a moral, even if sometimes difficult choice alone.
Alceste
Vagabond
It is also in our primal nature to fight what we see different, even other human beings. This is reflected in little and major things, like seeing badly people who disagree with you to full fledged wars.
Even though fighting against those who are different to us (this includes humans and is even specialyy directed to humans in the same way animals fight for territory) religion and general morality would still promote acceptance instead of killing each other out.
So saying it is natural for a woman to kill it´s child because she feels desperate because life takes her somewhere she doesn´t want to go is not a good moral argument.
When lifes are at stake, it becomes amoral argument
It doesn't need to be a good moral argument: I am talking about how the world is. We might as well argue over whether the stars in the sky are immoral. However compelling any moral argument against abortion may be (and so far you haven't produced anything compelling, let's be honest) the only thing that crosses the mind of a woman or girl when she finds out she is pregnant is "Do I want to have a baby right now?" If the answer is an unambiguous no, she will do anything in her power to end the pregnancy as quickly as possible. Every barrier you try erect to prevent this will only delay the inevitable, pose serious risks to women's health and ensure that by the time the pregnancy is terminated the embryo is further along the path toward having a nervous system and the capacity to feel sensation.
chinu
chinu
Than tell me.. What is wrong in giving birth to the childrens than to abort them out before birth ?
its the question for everybody here.
_/\_
Chinu
Me Myself
Back to my username
I am not talking about legality, I am no lawyer for that kind of discussion. This thread specifically asks if it is wrong.
Like if you ask if adultery is wrong. When one says it is wrong it is not necesarily thus saying it should be ilegal.
That said, I do think some forms of abortion should be ilegal but to enter into a too specific debate on that I am simply not that versed in legality.
I think it is okay as legal when mother´s life is at stake. When it is not her life, but her preference that is at fault, then the deal is completely different.
Also, I am not taking anyones rights away. "Rights" are legal-social conventions and they change in between contries, unless you are on Ecuador and we are making a voting about it, the expressing of my opinion hardly damages you
It´s nice to see how you talk for every woman in existence. It´s so sad I write this from my cave where I ahve never seen women
Did you kmow Ecuador doesn´t have women?
That probably why I hate them (seriously though
)I´ve meat 3 women that did not want babies at this opint of their lives and were willing to accept the reality and adapt their lives around it when they thought they were pregnant.
OF this 3, only one was seriously pregnant, and trust me it wasn´t on her plans, nor she keeps the baby for any "social stygma"
When I promote this argument I am not saying we should look down on women who make the wrong choice (and I have the right to say whose choice is wrong or not as much as you have the right to think that doing such is "wrong") I am saying we should ALL (not only women) understand that a life is more important than hardships (yes, even big hardships).
I have seen my friends desperate with this and how hard it is for her and when I asked them what were they planing to do they almost hit me when they thought I was up for abortion xD.
They "knew" they were mothers, and they knew they had to be strong enough for their child. You see it as deamining women? I disagree. I see it as women having the power to be bigger than life and accept one of the biggest chalenges in their weakest moments.
Men also have responsabilities mind you, as much as it may be for 9 months, the life time commitment is from both ends( and I am not belittling the 9 months) Men AND women are bound the be parents to their childs and to take care of them from the moment they concive them.
So get off your high-horse telling me I am "wrong" for saying what I believe to be moral or not when it is exactly the subject in discussion. You have a right to your opinion and so do I.
I do think it is very wrong though, and many ecuadorian women I am proud to call my friends would agree with me.
Ah, and news flash, of this 3, only one considers herself "catholic", and she is not even a rigurous one.
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Alceste
Vagabond
I can think of many things that can be "wrong" with giving birth, but the only one that matters is that the woman calling the shots doesn't want to go through a pregnancy and child birth.
Did you know that squeezing a child out of one's vagina tears it to pieces, usually requiring stitches, or that a woman's genitals are never the same? Did you know that child birth is excruciatingly painful, often for hours and hours on end? Did you know that the rapid expansion of the abdomen and breasts often causes permanent scarring?
Do you consider that women who have a newborn infant to care for are not able to work and earn an income for anywhere from several months to several years after the child's birth?
Honestly, if you can not think of what might be "wrong" with enduring pregnancy and child birth when you sincerely do not want to be a mother, you are completely lacking in compassion, understanding and empathy for women.
Alceste
Vagabond
It´s nice to see how you talk for every woman in existence. It´s so sad I write this from my cave where I ahve never seen women
Did you kmow Ecuador doesn´t have women?
(seriously though
I´ve meat 3 women that did not want babies at this opint of their lives and were willing to accept the reality and adapt their lives around it when they thought they were pregnant.
OF this 3, only one was seriously pregnant, and trust me it wasn´t on her plans, nor she keeps the baby for any "social stygma"
When I promote this argument I am not saying we should look down on women who make the wrong choice (and I have the right to say whose choice is wrong or not as much as you have the right to think that doing such is "wrong") I am saying we should ALL (not only women) understand that a life is more important than hardships (yes, even big hardships).
I have seen my friends desperate with this and how hard it is for her and when I asked them what were they planing to do they almost hit me when they thought I was up for abortion xD.
They "knew" they were mothers, and they knew they had to be strong enough for their child. You see it as deamining women? I disagree. I see it as women having the power to be bigger than life and accept one of the biggest chalenges in their weakest moments.
Men also have responsabilities mind you, as much as it may be for 9 months, the life time commitment is from both ends( and I am not belittling the 9 months) Men AND women are bound the be parents to their childs and to take care of them from the moment they concive them.
So get off your high-horse telling me I am "wrong" for saying what I believe to be moral or not when it is exactly the subject in discussion. You have a right to your opinion and so do I.
I do think it is very wrong though, and many ecuadorian women I am proud to call my friends would agree with me.
Ah, and news flash, of this 3, only one considers herself "catholic", and she is not even a rigurous one.
So you know 3 women who went ahead and had an unexpected baby and suffered all the associated hardships.
Do you think that might be because abortion is illegal in Equador?
Seems a little disingenuous to brag about the superior moral virtues of Equadorian women when they are forbidden by law from having any choice in the matter. Do you think any of your female friends who had tried to end a pregnancy by illegal or dangerous means would have told you about it?
Me Myself
Back to my username
Trust me, when you are talking Guayaquil (and I know my city) It is abundantly easy to get some CYTOTEC.
We are talking that this gals were the only ones that knew this, they didn´t even told their couples (the fathers).
For wealthy families, the pressure tends to be on favour of abortin instead of against it, and they prefer to do it quietly and with the least amount of people knowing.
We are talking about a country where it is very easy to get medicaments without an order from the doctors (and that is in regular normal pharmacies, not any kind of black market)
Trust me, options for abortion there are and the law makes blind eye on this subjects because our city is seen as "progressive".
We are also talking about the same city where pirate dvds are sold on legal stores.
Say what you may, but they did had a choice.
Edit: and as a side note, I know 3 women who thought they were. Ultimately one of them really was, and she has a belly by now.
edit2: and it is "Ecuador" not "Equador", it´s not the Equator xD (well it is in the equator, but that´s not the name at least)
Alceste
Vagabond
Whoops! Thanks for pointing that out.
So, given that in ECUADORIAN culture the custom is to go ahead and have abortions on the black market in secret, wouldn't it be preferable for women to have their abortions in safe, sanitary, professional clinics? Wouldn't it be better for everyone if people talked openly about it?
How can you ever hope to persuade women that your moral opinion is superior to theirs if discussion of the subject is taboo?
Me Myself
Back to my username
It´s cool, it´s a confusing name
The subject itself is not taboo on Guayaquil at all. Women in guayaquil don´t need to do this in black markets nor anything the like, at contrair, what i said is that the regular pharmacy (NOT black market) would give you the medicine needed for abortion (maybe I made a typo there somwhere? sorry, I know I am the king of typos
) without prescription because that is the CUSTOM in guayaquil to give any medicine without prescription. I am not telling you this is the culture of all Ecuador, or more of, this would probably be a incorrect writting on my part, I speak from what I know and that is Guayaquil (a specific city in Ecuador) and in Guayaquil my friends who did not wanted the baby originally, didn´t want to kill it either. to them it was a no brainer that they wouldn´t killit, even if they were afraid off everything else because of it.
The easiest choice was to kill it, the one who was closer to me (one of the ones that at the end wasn´t pregnant) only said it to me what happened to her and she was scared $·%& pants off
The only thing she knew is that was going to protect the baby, no matter what anyone said or thought.the one that actually had the baby caught me by surprise. She is a friend but not a close one, more like a friend of a very close friend. She even surprised him (they are practically brothers ) because that attitude wasn´t like her, she is usually egotistical.
Of course that one had it the worst. She had this problem TWICE. The first time she had to abort because it was in the thin part of the things, and it would have killed her and the baby would have died too
She was destroyed for having to abort it. My friend told me how she was in tears because even though she didn´t want it and her boyfriend that ignore the existenc eof the baby was being an ·"$% and that he was in highschool and wouldn´t be able to help in anything with her even if she had it... well.. she loved it already, because it was her son The secont time was the one where it was on the right place, so even if it was unexpected she was to keep it, just as the first, but now, she trully could. At least this time her boyfriend didn´t suck (another boyfriend.)
The thing is I know those who abort the child rarey see it as their son/daugther, or even if they do see it as such for a while are talked and convinced otherwise for peole pro-choice, but It is still my posture that it is a person, and if I argue this is because I like arguing this stuff, I can´t do it in general life because people in general get offended for one reason or the oppposite, but I do think it is unnecesary to speak as if I don´t care what this women go through.
I just have a diffeerent perspective.
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chinu
chinu
Like.. as we all know that global warming these days is the result of our performed unnatural activities for the sake of body comforts or pleasures, But nature has returned it to us in this form with intrest.
Similarly... The result of Abortion is somethig like this, if one is not bearing now, than one have bear it some other times.. with intrest -- Because this is nature. Not a chance to escape.
Well... This is a long topic of 280 pages in the book, I think this much is sufficent to understand the point.
_/\_
Chinu
Alceste
Vagabond
It´s cool, it´s a confusing name
The subject itself is not taboo on Guayaquil at all. Women in guayaquil don´t need to do this in black markets nor anything the like, at contrair, what i said is that the regular pharmacy (NOT black market) would give you the medicine needed for abortion (maybe I made a typo there somwhere? sorry, I know I am the king of typos
I am not telling you this is the culture of all Ecuador, or more of, this would probably be a incorrect writting on my part, I speak from what I know and that is Guayaquil (a specific city in Ecuador) and in Guayaquil my friends who did not wanted the baby originally, didn´t want to kill it either. to them it was a no brainer that they wouldn´t killit, even if they were afraid off everything else because of it.
The easiest choice was to kill it, the one who was closer to me (one of the ones that at the end wasn´t pregnant) only said it to me what happened to her and she was scared $·%& pants off
the one that actually had the baby caught me by surprise. She is a friend but not a close one, more like a friend of a very close friend. She even surprised him (they are practically brothers ) because that attitude wasn´t like her, she is usually egotistical.
Of course that one had it the worst. She had this problem TWICE. The first time she had to abort because it was in the thin part of the things, and it would have killed her and the baby would have died too
The secont time was the one where it was on the right place, so even if it was unexpected she was to keep it, just as the first, but now, she trully could. At least this time her boyfriend didn´t suck (another boyfriend.)
The thing is I know those who abort the child rarey see it as their son/daugther, or even if they do see it as such for a while are talked and convinced otherwise for peole pro-choice, but It is still my posture that it is a person, and if I argue this is because I like arguing this stuff, I can´t do it in general life because people in general get offended for one reason or the oppposite, but I do think it is unnecesary to speak as if I don´t care what this women go through.
I just have a diffeerent perspective.
You can't call it a "son" or "daughter" because it has no gender. Until the 9th week, by which time most abortions have already occurred, the fetus has no features by which we could differentiate one gender from another.
The stories you tell are not at all surprising. I know many women who have had surprise babies and many others who have terminated unexpected pregnancies. I've known women who were delighted with their decision and others who were regretful in both categories. I think it's ideal that the freedom to act according to her own conscience is available to women in both groups. I would not want that situation to change. In fact, I will do my best not to allow that situation to change.
For you it may be a fanciful bit of fun to debate the rightness or wrongness of abortion. For women it is a matter of life and death.
Alceste
Vagabond
Like.. as we all know that global warming these days is the result of our performed unnatural activities for the sake of body comforts or pleasures, But nature has returned it to us in this form with intrest.
Similarly... The result of Abortion is somethig like this, if one is not bearing now, than one have bear it some other times.. with intrest -- Because this is nature. Not a chance to escape.
Well... This is a long topic of 280 pages in the book, I think this much is sufficent to understand the point.
_/\_
Chinu
Actually I don't understand your point. On the one hand you are saying that there are so many humans stinking up the place that we're destroying the whole world, while on the other you're saying that reducing accidental and unplanned child-bearing is also going to destroy us.
Make up your mind!
Me Myself
Back to my username
They don´t care if it is "mi hijo"(my son) or "mi hija"(my daughter) the only know it´s "Mi bebe" (my baby)
Well then, my point still stands then. In opposition of what you said that women that didn´t want the baby would always try to kill it, I still say it is not always the case. In many women, their motherly instincts are greater than the "free irresponsable teens" our society loves to play on those years.
Even if it was not the case, it would be our responsability as a society to enforce the moral decision, eeven if not legaly, but at least by propaganda.
Not in Ecuador though. If it were a matter of life and death, abortion is 100% legal. It doesn´t seem like a bad system if you ask me. It says the life of the mother is important, but not more important than that of her baby. She has the right to choose, because it is her life. But it is ilegal if it is not the life she is choosing, but the direction of her life over an actual life or death situation (that of her baby).
You are also debating for "fun", we are not voting here
. I am promoting the point of view I believe in and listening to what you believe because I am interested and you are doing the same.
Me Myself
Back to my username
Actually I don't understand your point. On the one hand you are saying that there are so many humans stinking up the place that we're destroying the whole world, while on the other you're saying that reducing accidental and unplanned child-bearing is also going to destroy us.
Make up your mind!
I mostly just don´t understand his posts
chinu
chinu
OKActually I don't understand your point. On the one hand you are saying that there are so many humans stinking up the place that we're destroying the whole world, while on the other you're saying that reducing accidental and unplanned child-bearing is also going to destroy us.
Make up your mind!
_/\_
Chinu