Abortion - is it wrong?

[Alceste]

They don´t care if it is "mi hijo"(my son) or "mi hija"(my daughter) the only know it´s "Mi bebe" (my baby)




Well then, my point still stands then. In opposition of what you said that women that didn´t want the baby would always try to kill it, I still say it is not always the case. In many women, their motherly instincts are greater than the "free irresponsable teens" our society loves to play on those years.

Even if it was not the case, it would be our responsability as a society to enforce the moral decision, eeven if not legaly, but at least by propaganda.



Not in Ecuador though. If it were a matter of life and death, abortion is 100% legal. It doesn´t seem like a bad system if you ask me. It says the life of the mother is important, but not more important than that of her baby. She has the right to choose, because it is her life. But it is ilegal if it is not the life she is choosing, but the direction of her life over an actual life or death situation (that of her baby).

You are also debating for "fun", we are not voting here . I am promoting the point of view I believe in and listening to what you believe because I am interested and you are doing the same.

I am not debating "for fun", for heaven's sake. I'm a woman. The question of whether abortion is legal or illegal directly affects me, personally. It matters, perhaps more than any other single issue in a woman's life. Every sexually active woman you know will almost certainly have had at least a scare at some point, regardless of how diligent they are about birth control.

I have had maybe half a dozen pregnancy scares, three morning after pills and a medical abortion at 5 weeks. You think it is right and proper that I should have been forced to have up to (let's tally this up, shall we?) TEN babies due to bad luck (broken condoms), bad judgment (gin-related), and the occasional birth control slip-up (missed pills).

Unacceptable.

If you think abortion is wrong, don't have an abortion. Why complicate the matter by claiming you know what is right for others?

 

[Me Myself]

I am not debating "for fun", for heaven's sake. I'm a woman. The question of whether abortion is legal or illegal directly affects me, personally. It matters

Unless North America´s laws are extracted from the RF discussiong forums, no it doesn´t.

By the way, we are not debating wheter it should be ilegal to have abortions, we are debating wheter it is wrong. They are not the same.

Adultery would be seen as immoral to most people and it is still not ilegal in most places.

Every sexually active woman you know will almost certainly have had at least a scare at some point, regardless of how diligent they are about birth control and monogamy.

Most of us are scared when we think life is going to change in a big way unexpectedly.

I have had maybe half a dozen pregnancy scares, three morning after pills and a medical abortion at 5 weeks. You think it is right and proper that I should have been forced to have up to (let's tally this up, shall we?) TEN babies due to bad luck (broken condoms), bad judgment (gin-related), and the occasional birth control slip-up (missed pills).

According to the % that Dread showed, abortions are most of the time had due to improper use of contraceptive methods. And most of the times means that half the times there were no contraceptives and the other half had very little of actual good use.

If you can´t drink and not make babies, that is hardly the fault of the babies you killed

If you think abortion is wrong, don't have an abortion.

If you think murder is wrong, don´t kill anybody, but for Pete´s sake, if somebody wants to murder somebody else, let him choose!

It´s his right. Or are you so great in character you are going to choose for everyone what is right for them? Maybe killing was the easiest way to go for this murderer, ever thought of that?

The argument of "If you think abortion is wrong don´t do it yourself" is not enough. Due to abortion, a woman can murder the son of a man in the U. S. as if not only the son but also thee father doesn´t matter.

to say that is only the women´s bussiness it´s clearly messed up.

 

[Alceste]

According to the % that Dread showed, abortions are most of the time had due to improper use of contraceptive methods. And most of the times means that half the times there were no contraceptives and the other half had very little of actual good use.

According to her rebuttal to your point, which you ignored, one doesn't need to be irresponsible to slip up or have an accident with birth control. Condoms break. Distractions arise that make you lose track of the time and take your pill an hour or two late. Even if NOTHING goes wrong and NO mistakes are made, there are no methods of birth control that are 100% effective even when used correctly.

If you are CERTAIN you don't want to get pregnant and you do EVERYTHING in your power not to get pregnant, you can still get pregnant. Even if you opt for abstinence, you can still get raped. If you are married and your husband has a vasectomy, you can still get pregnant (this happened to my cousin, and before you ask, the girl looks EXACTLY like her father).

If you can´t drink and not make babies, that is hardly the fault of the babies you killed

Wow, even after I have told you I have personally terminated a pregnancy in the first few weeks - long before there was any capacity for sensation or awareness, any gender or any recognizable human characteristics in the embryo - you STILL insist that this is murder - IOW, you are calling me a murderer.

Very persuasive.

And you expect me to still discuss the topic with you? Screw that - I don't talk to rapists. You're going on ignore now.

 

[Me Myself]

According to her rebuttal to your point, which you ignored, one doesn't need to be irresponsible to slip up or have an accident with birth control. Condoms break. Distractions arise that make you lose track of the time and take your pill an hour or two late. Even if NOTHING goes wrong and NO mistakes are made, there are no methods of birth control that are 100% effective even when used correctly.

If you are CERTAIN you don't want to get pregnant and you do EVERYTHING in your power not to get pregnant, you can still get pregnant. Even if you opt for abstinence, you can still get raped. If you are married and your husband has a vasectomy, you can still get pregnant (this happened to my cousin, and before you ask, the girl looks EXACTLY like her father

I never said there was a 100% effective birth control. I said that according to the numbers sh presented the bast majority of the cases were not accidents that happened when it was used and correctly used, but things that happened when it was not used or not used correctly.

I can see there is a posibility that the child is concieved even if you do everything right, but it is incredibly low and it is also the risk one runs when having sex.

Sometimes life just changes. I don´t think that means one should murder it´s way out of it.

Wow, even after I have told you I have personally terminated a pregnancy in the first few weeks - long before there was any capacity for sensation or awareness, any gender or any recognizable human characteristics in the embryo - you STILL insist that this is murder - IOW, you are calling me a murderer.

Very persuasive.

And you expect me to still discuss the topic with you? Screw that - I don't talk to rapists. You're going on ignore now.

if yuo can´t talk about the subject due to your own closeness to it I have no quarrel with you hitting ignore.

You are telling me you killed your children. I am telling you that is murder in my eyes. It is the subject of the thread. It´s not like I think anything that Alceste does is moraly okay.

Why should you telling me you had abortions change any of my thoughts? I don´t even know you

 

[theirreverentconcubine]

The life of a human will take priority over the feelings of a women. That isn't intended to dimiss them....so don't go there.
[/COLOR]

My research seems to indicate that at or around three years of age, an infant becomes cognizant of events not of her doing, in a primitive, of course.

Theory of mind. You might wanna look it up. There has been enough information posted around the internet on feral children to understand we are firstly primate, and that our "humanity" is a function of civilization; without science having a "need" for horrific experimentation to "prove" some theological conceptions are simply incorrect.

Abortion is wrong for me; as such I am careful in my relations, but I am also old, remembering being young. I mean, a girl can get caught up in biological imperative just as easy as a guy... I mean, it's not even a life for a life if you want to get technical; it is two humans whose lives are irrevocably altered, versus the potential of life which will be primate for the first three years. It may sound callous to speak in these terms about a fetus; but we're not even considering a baby. I know what a baby is.

I remember being on another forum trying to tell a bunch of atheists the difference between pro-abortion and pro-choice; perhaps it is just politics, but I seem to be pro-choice about everything. And pro-life doesn't seem to mean anything other than pro-my-life; I have yet to hear these people say their church is going to provide for the baby that no mother should have without love.

 

[theirreverentconcubine]

You are telling me you killed your children. I am telling you that is murder in my eyes.

The first sentence I consider to be quite offensive, coming from an man to a woman. Your second sentence is just incorrect.

One can only murder a human being, not a collection of cells; and one can only be convicted of murder if the consideration of "malice aforethought" is presented to a jury beyond a reasonable doubt.

Not my argument, but I could not help but notice the insult; because insult is all that was expressed, with both these sentences considered as a whole. The killing of cells also happens when I trim my fingernails; am I a murderess in your eyes?

 

[McBell]

You are telling me you killed your children. I am telling you that is murder in my eyes. It is the subject of the thread. It´s not like I think anything that Alceste does is moraly okay.

So to you, abortion means "murdering children"?

 

[McBell]

The first sentence I consider to be quite offensive, coming from an man to a woman.

I agree.
However, I understand that such appeal to emotion statements are solely to elicit emotional reactions.

Your second sentence is just incorrect.

I have to disagree.
Not only with his beliefs, but also with your saying that they are not his beliefs.

 

[Alceste]

So to you, abortion means "murdering children"?

And to me, believing women should be forced by the state to bear children against their will, conscience and better judgment is rape.

No need to justify that. It is rape just because I say so. Anyone who maintains this opinion after I have explained that it is rape is a rapist.

 

[espo35]

And to me, believing women should be forced by the state to bear children against their will, conscience and better judgment is rape.

No need to justify that. It is rape just because I say so. Anyone who maintains this opinion after I have explained that it is rape is a rapist.

You poor "victim", you.

 

[Drolefille]

You poor "victim", you.

If I hook you up to an IV against your will to another person and tell you it's your responsibility to keep this second person alive with your body, would you do it? Or would you consider it a violation of your bodily autonomy? Or both?

 

[Me Myself]

If I hook you up to an IV against your will to another person and tell you it's your responsibility to keep this second person alive with your body, would you do it? Or would you consider it a violation of your bodily autonomy? Or both?

more importantly, it´s the other person´s fault?

Did he had irresponsable sex before it?

 

[Drolefille]

Unless North America´s laws are extracted from the RF discussiong forums, no it doesn´t.

The point is that if we agree to disagree, that you think it's wrong and I don't. Then based on whose opinion do you think laws should be made?

Because I don't care if you think it's wrong. I'll think you're a jerk for calling a poster a murderer for having an abortion, but you might as well put me down for conspiracy to commit murder because when I had a late period, boyfriend and I talked about our options and abortion would have been the one had it not been a false alarm.

If you think it's wrong, and you don't try to restrict my actions, I'll agree to disagree and move on. If you DO try to restrict my rights, we have issues.

According to the % that Dread showed, abortions are most of the time had due to improper use of contraceptive methods. And most of the times means that half the times there were no contraceptives and the other half had very little of actual good use.

As pointed out you ignored my rebuttal. And was this an attempt to be witty about my name or something else?

If you can´t drink and not make babies, that is hardly the fault of the babies you killed

See, here you go calling people murderers, or at least killers. In your mind should women be prosecuted for procuring an abortion for the murder of her "baby"?

It´s his right. Or are you so great in character you are going to choose for everyone what is right for them? Maybe killing was the easiest way to go for this murderer, ever thought of that?

The argument of "If you think abortion is wrong don´t do it yourself" is not enough. Due to abortion, a woman can murder the son of a man in the U. S. as if not only the son but also thee father doesn´t matter.

to say that is only the women´s bussiness it´s clearly messed up.

It's her body. If it were in your body, you'd make the final call. Again, are you suggesting prosecution? Would you support restraint/incarceration and forced childbirth for women who don't want a baby?

Because you keep ignoring the practical realities here. We get that you think it's wrong, so now what? What do you do about women who are irrepairably injured from illegal abortions? Send them to prison? Think through the implications of abortion=murder as I've listed and you've disregarded

If you don't feel those consequences are correct, then maybe it's because your premise is flawed.

 

[Drolefille]

more importantly, it´s the other person´s fault?

Did he had irresponsable sex before it?

Your definition of irresponsible is not the same as everyone else's and I find your joke in poor taste.

 

[Me Myself]

The point is that if we agree to disagree, that you think it's wrong and I don't. Then based on whose opinion do you think laws should be made?

Because I don't care if you think it's wrong. I'll think you're a jerk for calling a poster a murderer for having an abortion.

You may think as you please I didn´t call you neither Alceste any of such names. I said abortion is murder on my book, for alceste t think she is special and her abortions are special to me so that they are not murder, was kinda silly.

My mother had an abortion when she was young. I am not saying she didn´t murder her baby,and I love her, but the person doesn´t change the actions. If I won´t make an exception for my mother why would I make an expectiong for a stranger in a forum I don´t even know?

If you think it's wrong, and you don't try to restrict my actions, I'll agree to disagree and move on. If you DO try to restrict my rights, we have issues.

I am not trying. So long as there is not a worldwide votation for the issue everyhwere I think you are pretty safe to kill freely.

As pointed out you ignored my rebuttal. And was this an attempt to be witty about my name or something else?

I actually have problems remembering your name . Now at least I remember is not the one I put (well now I did call you names but not insults though)

What I say still stands: Half of them didn´t use contraceptives, those who did did not use them properly every time they had sex. If they had given the issue the importance it needed, they do could say "Yes we used it properly every time we had sex". This however was a big minority in the % you presented.

See, here you go calling people murderers, or at least killers. In your mind should women be prosecuted for procuring an abortion for the murder of her "baby"?

I am happy with Ecuadorian laws actually. If it is harming your life, you can have an abortion, but if it is just changing the direction of your life, then you shouldn´t kill the baby because of it.

I believe it is jail by 5 years to those breaking the law about it. Though idealy the penal system should be better than here, because here it is easy to just have the bortion without anyone knowing, and without further risks.

It's her body. If it were in your body, you'd make the final call. Again, are you suggesting prosecution? Would you support restraint/incarceration and forced childbirth for women who don't want a baby?

Because you keep ignoring the practical realities here. We get that you think it's wrong, so now what? What do you do about women who are irrepairably injured from illegal abortions? Send them to prison? Think through the implications of abortion=murder as I've listed and you've disregarded

If you don't feel those consequences are correct, then maybe it's because your premise is flawed.

Kinda described my posture above.

 

[Drolefille]

You may think as you please I didn´t call you neither Alceste any of such names. I said abortion is murder on my book, for alceste t think she is special and her abortions are special to me so that they are not murder, was kinda silly.

My mother had an abortion when she was young. I am not saying she didn´t murder her baby,and I love her, but the person doesn´t change the actions. If I won´t make an exception for my mother why would I make an expectiong for a stranger in a forum I don´t even know?

I think people who call people who've had abortions are jerks. I'm not making an exception for a stranger on a forum. Well that's not true, I'm modulating my language to an extreme degree, but trust me, the feeling is there.

I am not trying. So long as there is not a worldwide votation for the issue everyhwere I think you are pretty safe to kill freely.

No, I'm not. My rights to control my body are constantly under threat by jerks in my country. But then we can just agree to disagree and move on.

What I say still stands: Half of them didn´t use contraceptives, those who did did not use them properly every time they had sex. If they had given the issue the importance it needed, they do could say "Yes we used it properly every time we had sex". This however was a big minority in the % you presented.

I don't really feel like you understand how using birth control works. And unless you'd be willing to provide IUDs, essures or implants to women and vasectomies to men for free your expectation is unrealistic. No one does everything perfectly even if it's matters of millions of dollars or lives saved or lost.

I am happy with Ecuadorian laws actually. If it is harming your life, you can have an abortion, but if it is just changing the direction of your life, then you shouldn´t kill the baby because of it.

I believe it is jail by 5 years to those breaking the law about it. Though idealy the penal system should be better than here, because here it is easy to just have the bortion without anyone knowing, and without further risks.

Ok, so you support women going to jail for 5 years and in fact would like to see more women going to jail because some are getting away with it. I'm pretty sure this conversation has no where positive to go. You think it's wrong, and support criminal penalties, although are ok with those penalties being less than those for murder.


Things like this make me want to be a doctor so i could provide women with their medical care safely so they wouldn't go to a creepy back alley "doctor." The rationalization just doesn't add up to me.

[/quote]

 

[espo35]

The Nazis told themselves that Jews weren't "human".

Do any of you have a problem with calling them "murderers"?

 

[Me Myself]

I think people who call people who've had abortions are jerks. I'm not making an exception for a stranger on a forum. Well that's not true, I'm modulating my language to an extreme degree, but trust me, the feeling is there.


No, I'm not. My rights to control my body are constantly under threat by jerks in my country. But then we can just agree to disagree and move on.


I don't really feel like you understand how using birth control works. And unless you'd be willing to provide IUDs, essures or implants to women and vasectomies to men for free your expectation is unrealistic. No one does everything perfectly even if it's matters of millions of dollars or lives saved or lost.


Ok, so you support women going to jail for 5 years and in fact would like to see more women going to jail because some are getting away with it. I'm pretty sure this conversation has no where positive to go. You think it's wrong, and support criminal penalties, although are ok with those penalties being less than those for murder.


Things like this make me want to be a doctor so i could provide women with their medical care safely so they wouldn't go to a creepy back alley "doctor." The rationalization just doesn't add up to me.

[/QUOTE]

I think we both know pretty much were the other one stands then.

I do would say it is one thing to say a way of thinking or acting is x, but it is not the same to say a person is x.

I called on the way of acting when regarding abortion, but I didn´t insult anyone (wheter they have felt insulted becuase they can´t separate themselves to their actions is another thing entirely)

But bah, jerk is a mild insult anyways.

 

[Me Myself]

The Nazis told themselves that Jews weren't "human".

Do any of you have a problem with calling them "murderers"?

I understand your analogy but must advice you to stay away from nazi analogies:

Reductio ad Hitlerum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It just feels to brute (as in unrefined) and without further aclaration it appears to be a very low tactic.

Well it appears a low tactic even by further aclaration.

Calling somebody a murdrer when they are killing something that their entire society is pro-kiling is a gray area. We are sons of our cultures and times. Reality is that most of those soldiers did truly believe they were doing good and jews were evil and diserved it. Their actions were obviously hideous, but they were practicaly brainwashed into thinking jews weren´t "humans".

 

[Father Heathen]

more importantly, it´s the other person´s fault?

Did he had irresponsable sex before it?

I think irresponsible breeding is far more abhorrent than irresponsible sex.