Abortion

[leibowde84]

I've already addressed "pro choice" to AGREE with you that most people who are pro choice would NEVER have an abortion. At least, call it "pro someone else's choice"!

And please know I'm the exception to your rule. I'm absolutely committed to learning from you and taking what you have to offer in this conversation.

I hear what you're saying about a neutral place. We were anti-abortion advocates, yes. But we offered a neutral place for parents and kids to talk. Now, consider the ramifications. Weren't we taking risks that we've "talked the young person into not aborting but rather, talking to parents first," but that the PARENTS would be for the abortion(s)? No, I'm telling you that was the fastest way to end the abortion process. Get mom and kids talking. "Honey, I love you, and even though this wasn't the right time in your life for this, I will love my grandchild, also."

Now, I'm unsure I feel safe in offering this next bit of "wisdom". I'm sure I will be accused of dishonesty. But I'll tell you one thing I personally witnessed. We had people come to us after visiting with a local Planned Parenthood, couples wanting assistance, and they told us things like, "They put him in one room and me in the other, encouraging us to abort, and each saying the other in the couple was for the abortion, when we all along wanted this child!"

The opposite of Planned "Un-" Parenthood's manipulation? Communication. That's why even though I prefer pro abortion to pro choice as some gentle euphemism, I'm all about the communication...

Thanks for your patience with me.

That is ridiculous. Calling someone who is pro-choice "pro-abortion" is nothing more than an unfounded ignorant insult. "Pro-choice" is the most appropriate term, as they usually believe that the choice, at least, should be available to every woman. That they themselves wouldn't get one is completely irrelevant and is not necessary at all, as that is a moral issue, not a legal one.

 

[Marisa]

I've already addressed "pro choice" to AGREE with you that most people who are pro choice would NEVER have an abortion. At least, call it "pro someone else's choice"!

Unnecessary. Pro Choice fits.

And please know I'm the exception to your rule. I'm absolutely committed to learning from you and taking what you have to offer in this conversation.

I hear what you're saying about a neutral place. We were anti-abortion advocates, yes. But we offered a neutral place for parents and kids to talk. Now, consider the ramifications. Weren't we taking risks that we've "talked the young person into not aborting but rather, talking to parents first," but that the PARENTS would be for the abortion(s)? No, I'm telling you that was the fastest way to end the abortion process. Get mom and kids talking. "Honey, I love you, and even though this wasn't the right time in your life for this, I will love my grandchild, also."

I'll have to take your word that you are in any way open to an alternative perspective. I'm not sure I've seen any evidence that you are as of yet.

And please, words have meanings. If you have a position such that you work in a facility which advocates that position, you are not neutral. Stop insisting that you are.

Now, I'm unsure I feel safe in offering this next bit of "wisdom". I'm sure I will be accused of dishonesty. But I'll tell you one thing I personally witnessed. We had people come to us after visiting with a local Planned Parenthood, couples wanting assistance, and they told us things like, "They put him in one room and me in the other, encouraging us to abort, and each saying the other in the couple was for the abortion, when we all along wanted this child!"

I can absolutely see a reason for that. Are you aware that many abusers use pregnancy to keep their victim from being able to leave easily? Sitting a child down in an anti choice establishment with her parents, one of which may be the reason she's there to begin with, certainly comes dangerously close to enabling an abuser. This isn't to say this would always be the case, but it seems far less likely that a CPC would dig too deeply into such issues.

The opposite of Planned "Un-" Parenthood's manipulation? Communication. That's why even though I prefer pro abortion to pro choice as some gentle euphemism, I'm all about the communication...

Thanks for your patience with me.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to call you on insisting that you're advocating "communication" from a "neutral" position. If this wasn't such a dear topic to me, I'd likely be laughing. That's an incredibly hypocritical thing to have stated.

 

[Marisa]

I would respectfully disagree and say I feel badly for kids who lose their innocence at 14, 15, 16...

I really don't understand this. The human brain does not fully develop until around age 24-26. One can be sexually active, and naive as hell.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Parents and guardians were not necessary for over-18 college students. They were wanted. Once the child reached out to their parents, the "need" to abort disappeared. Thus, many abortions are unneeded. "I'm going to abort so my folks don't learn I'm pregnant."

Hmmmm.....There are young women who prefer not having parents present when they go for their pap smear, breast examinations, and cervical examination. Is this a bad thing, that women over 18 wish to keep their medical history and status private, and only wish to keep a relationship between them and their doctor in regards to their reproductive health?

I'm sensing evasion here. That, and there are hints of strong coercion involved.

For the third time:
- How young were your patients? Anyone under 14? If you had patients under 14, were the parents presence and experience identical to young women wanting their parents to be present?
- What kind of medical examinations were conducted? Sonograms? Pregnancy tests? And if they were implemented, was the staff licensed to examine patients?
- What kind of follow-up services were provided to patients who visited the center?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I would respectfully disagree and say I feel badly for kids who lose their innocence at 14, 15, 16...

I don't think they need pity.

I think they need to be educated.

 

[leibowde84]

Parents and guardians were not necessary for over-18 college students. They were wanted. Once the child reached out to their parents, the "need" to abort disappeared. Thus, many abortions are unneeded. "I'm going to abort so my folks don't learn I'm pregnant."

Just out of curiosity, what are you arguing for? Do you think that all abortions should be illegal? Or, are you just making a moral argument?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

By unneeded abortions, I'm citing the fact that when young people - up through college grad students -

... who were leaning away from abortion enough to go a facility where they knew they would be persuaded against abortion, and who thought there was at least a possibility that their parents would be supportive...

were able to present their pregnancy to parents/guardians rather than abort to hide their sexual activity, almost invariably the parents said "no abortion is needed or wanted".

... once the parents were under the impression that their daughter didn't want an abortion.

BTW: how often was it "we don't want you to abort" and how often was it "we'll support your decision, whatever you choose"?

And, of course, the young people felt relieved.

... for the time being, still facing the burden of an unplanned pregnancy and early parenthood.

 

[Marisa]

BTW: how often was it "we don't want you to abort" and how often was it "we'll support your decision, whatever you choose"?

Well that's what I would tell my kid. Depending on her age and educational achievement, I might also counsel her to consider aborting. But we would be the Palin's if she decided not to, and do whatever we could to help her continue to achieve her goals. We're fortunate that we have the resources to be able to.

 

[SomeRandom]

I would respectfully disagree and say I feel badly for kids who lose their innocence at 14, 15, 16...

You know in my country the legal age of consent to sex is 16, provided the other person is not your legal guardian, teacher or 25 and over. Most people I know "lost their innocence" (as if teenagers are innocent HA!) at 14 15 and 16. Of course by the age of 13 and 14 we had learnt all about safe sex, STI's, why pressuring someone (anyone) into having sex was to be avoided, the importance of speaking with a qualified medical professional (or even relevant spiritual advisory) the importance of speaking with one's boy/girlfriend before a decision was made to have or not have sex and the stupid myths heard on the playground were thoroughly dismantled by the school nurse.

I lost mine at 15, turned out perfectly fine. However people who treated "losing your innocence" at such a young age as something to be pitied or to be felt badly at (and therefore something that was inherently "bad") were the only cause of any stress I did have related to it when I was younger. Because those types of people forced us youngsters to question our sexuality, biology and if we were "bad" people for doing something as natural as having sex out of choice. But I embraced the notion of not caring what people thought of me a while ago and was happier for it.

 

[Marisa]

You know in my country the legal age of consent to sex is 16, provided the other person is not your legal guardian, teacher or 25 and over. Most people I know "lost their innocence" (as if teenagers are innocent HA!) at 14 15 and 16. Of course by the age of 13 we had learnt all about safe sex and the stupid myths heard on the playground were dismantled by the school nurse.

I lost mine at 15, turned out perfectly fine. However people who treated "losing your innocence" at such a young age as something to be pitied or to be felt badly at (and therefore something that was inherently "bad") were the only cause of any stress I did have related to it when I was younger. Because those types of people forced us youngsters to question our sexuality, biology and if we were "bad" people for doing something as natural as having sex out of choice. But I embraced the notion of not caring what people thought of me a while ago and was happier for it.

Oh to live in a society where sex is seen as completely natural and not something only dirty people do.

 

[SomeRandom]

Oh to live in a society where sex is seen as completely natural and not something only dirty people do.

Well if it makes you feel any better, that's still the prevailing thought where I live too (though I live in a rather conservative area) but I suppose it's still nowhere near the amount of taboo Americans seem to put upon it.

 

[Marisa]

Well if it makes you feel any better, that's still the prevailing thought where I live too (though I live in a rather conservative area) but I suppose it's still nowhere near the amount of taboo Americans seem to put upon it.

It doesn't make me feel better. Imagine how much better off the whole world would be if there were no morality taboos around completely normal biological functions?

 

[SomeRandom]

It doesn't make me feel better. Imagine how much better off the whole world would be if there were no morality taboos around completely normal biological functions?

I suppose. I mean I know nudists and they seem happy enough. Hell we even have nude beaches in Aus.

 

[Marisa]

I suppose. I mean I know nudists and they seem happy enough. Hell we even have nude beaches in Aus.

I couldn't be a nudist. I sunburn too easily.

 

[Xenosaga Dragonzord]

in islam abortion is forbidden & life is sacred and holy

abortion is forbidden except for rape victim,medical reason,saving mother life & before the baby reaching 120 days.......(God send human soul from heaven at age 120 days in islam)

 

[Revoltingest]

in islam abortion is forbidden & life is sacred and holy

abortion is forbidden except for rape victim,medical reason,saving mother life & before the baby reaching 120 days.......(God send human soul from heaven at age 120 days in islam)

If life is sacred & holy, then why should a baby be aborted (killed) just because its mother was raped?
Does that injustice really condemn the baby to death?

 

[Marisa]

If life is sacred & holy, then why should a baby be aborted (killed) just because its mother was raped?
Does that injustice really condemn the baby to death?

I've always found it incredibly ironic that any religion uses phrases like "life is sacred and holy" given how many deaths religions are directly responsible for. Christians blowing up abortion clinics. ISIS killing people.

Nope, you'll likely never convince me that specifically the Abrahamics have any particular reverence for life.

 

[Revoltingest]

I've always found it incredibly ironic that any religion uses phrases like "life is sacred and holy" given how many deaths religions are directly responsible for. Christians blowing up abortion clinics. ISIS killing people.

Nope, you'll likely never convince me that specifically the Abrahamics have any particular reverence for life.

I'd say that they do, but that they have some galling inconsistencies.

Personally, I don't revere life.
Lives need to be taken at times.

 

[Marisa]

I'd say that they do, but that they have some galling inconsistencies.

Personally, I don't revere life.
Lives need to be taken at times.

As a pacifist, I have a certain respect for those who can do things I don't think I ever could.

 

[BilliardsBall]

All,

I didn't say I'm neutral on this issue. Very few people I know are neutral on this issue. I said the biggest tool to make an unnecessary abortion go away is to put the children and parents together. In the CPC, we were able to offer those who requested it a neutral meeting place. Would "safe" place help clarify? Or "Gosh, my mom's going to be REALLY mad. Where can I tell her?" "Here, we will have a counselor present if you wish it--or not."

I guess I'm a little stumped that no one responded to my Planned Parenthood story, or even to my claims to being honest and stepping out on a limb with you, before accusing me and mine of coercion!