Abortion

[Smart_Guy]

Your example is too extreme to properly apply to the entire thing. We can if we use statistics and see how one would get an abortion in the first place. I didn't say it never can occur I said that the only people who would abort for convenience probably shouldn't have kids anyway. So meh.

My feelings are irrelevant. I'm not getting an abortion right now. This is a debate for or against the right of abortion. Not whether or not I consider life or souls to be imbued in fetuses.
But for the record. Sure I do. But I'm not going to use that as justification for stopping another woman (or God forbid a child) from getting an abortion.

Maybe you are right, ma'am. I'm always bad at giving examples and all this deviated from the main point I was trying to discuss so I probably blew it up as it is not what I prepared for. My examples, according to you, seem to be really rude and useless in this discussion. I deeply apologize for that and please know that by all means I'm not trying to belittle women. If this is a debate for or against abortion, then I think my first ever implication in this thread which is that I'm not against abortion would be enough.

But even if the woman in the 4th month states she wants an abortion, how is that your business. No disrespect Smart Guy but it really is up to the woman. I have seen too many children damaged beyond repair by women who did not abort and then the child became a sociopath. It is better to not abort and then have a child who is a budding Jeffry Dauhmer or is it better that she does have that abortion? Personally, having seen the child who is a sociopath, I think it would be better to have aborted.

I never really claimed it is my business in this thread. I'm trying to find out if this is murder, asking questions whither the growing being in the womb is alive or not. I don't know why members here keep taking my questions as statement instead of just answering them at least first. If you're saying it is up to the women to kill a living being (in the next quote you said it is alive) and that being has no rights and can be completely disregarded, then I take it with respect and apologize that I can't comment on it.

My opinion...yes, that being is alive however, it is NOT a human being. It is a symbiotic creature entirely dependent on the woman for life. Without the host, it would die.

I understand. It really makes me feel sad to know that it can easily be looked at as "not a human being", but it is your opinion and I humbly respect the right of having an opinion.

 

[JoStories]

I never really claimed it is my business in this thread. I'm trying to find out if this is murder, asking questions whither the growing being in the womb is alive or not. I don't know why members here keep taking my questions as statement instead of just answering them at least first. If you're saying it is up to the women to kill a living being (in the next quote you said it is alive) and that being has no rights and can be completely disregarded, then I take it with respect and apologize that I can't comment on it.

IMO, it isn't murder Smart Guy as the fetus does not have a life of its own yet. Yes, it is life albeit a very rudimentary form of life. It can't subsist on its own. I am not entirely sure what it was you asked other than what I responded to dear one. If I missed something, I'm sorry. You know I am rarely rude and try to be as kind as possible to everyone. As for your last remarks, no, in this country at present, the fetus doesn't have any legal rights to personhood, which is defined as a human with the ability to breathe independently. If a woman doesn't wish to carry that fetus, for whatever reasons she might have, she has the right to abort here. I, too, respect that you might disagree dear friend.

I understand. It really makes me feel sad to know that it can easily be looked at as "not a human being", but it is your opinion and I humbly respect the right of having an opinion.

I'm sorry it makes you feel so sad. In truth, the one and only time I had one I was 15 years old and it was the product of rape. I would not normally have one and when I was old enough to practice sex that I participated in, I used birth control and never got pregnant until I wanted to. I am prochoice, meaning I support a woman's right o choose. That's all.

 

[Emi]

A very, very difficult position for a woman to be in, there's no question about that and no fairness in it for her. But an aborted baby is an innocent victim also. Wouldn't it be a better choice to at least have the baby and put it up for adoption?

I heard a very intelligent and articulate woman speak about this in a radio interview several years ago. She herself was conceived as a result of rape, and her mother wanted an abortion, but decided against it before it took place. She kept the baby and raised her. I think it's a wonderful thing that this woman is alive today. I have enormous admiration for her mother, whose charity toward the unborn baby and love for her little girl would have been so especially pleasing to God under these circumstances.

I also agree that her mother was very brave. However, I don't think it's right to torture a human being like that. It is what it is, torture. Doing something to another that is forced and emotionally and physically devastating.
I disagree with the torture of humans, and therefore I am pro abortion.
This isn't considering the fetus at this point. What about the living human being that is being put through an unbelievably amount of forced pain?

 

[Forever_Catholic]

Define "soul".

The soul is the eternal essence of your being. The soul animates a temporary physical body in the earthly life, and continues to live in spirit form when the body dies. It has no material substance, but does have form and substance as well as the mind, memories, and senses, which function independently of physical organs.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

So, when does Original Sin kick in?

It kicks in at conception, but original sin isn't personal sin. It's the effect of Adam and Eve's disobedience, which separated their souls and from God along with the souls of all mankind. It is the lack of sanctifying grace that makes souls holy and joins them with the Creator. Babies are born without sanctifying grace, but they receive it in baptism.

 

[McBell]

The soul is the eternal essence of your being. The soul animates a temporary physical body in the earthly life, and continues to live in spirit form when the body dies. It has no material substance, but does have form and substance as well as the mind, memories, and senses, which function independently of physical organs.

What evidence have you that the above described soul exists?

 

[Forever_Catholic]

That is one example. I would not have been able to manage carrying my grandfather's fetus which I got from rape for 10 months to give that fetus up for adoption. That was MY choice. And today, it remains the choice of the woman, whether by rape or simply sexual congress, to have an abortion or to carry the fetus to term. It may be a better choice for some but it is NOT a panacea for all women to be forced to carry a daily reminder of rape. If you think you would like to do that, go right ahead. For me, I have NO regrets over what I did.

I'm so sorry to hear that such a terrible thing happened to you. Your experience obviously has to have a great influence on your point of view regarding abortion. It's also a definitive illustration of the associated evils of rape and incest. An atrocity committed against one innocent person subsequently necessitates an offense against another.

I can't say you should have regrets about your choice. If I were someone you knew well enough for a private conversation, and if we were discussing this, there are things I would ask and things I might say in the hope of helping you find a more complete sense of peace, but I certainly can't judge you.

if you wouldn't mind responding to one question, have you been able to forgive your grandfather?

 

[SomeRandom]

Maybe you are right, ma'am. I'm always bad at giving examples and all this deviated from the main point I was trying to discuss so I probably blew it up as it is not what I prepared for. My examples, according to you, seem to be really rude and useless in this discussion. I deeply apologize for that and please know that by all means I'm not trying to belittle women. If this is a debate for or against abortion, then I think my first ever implication in this thread which is that I'm not against abortion would be enough.

I know you're not. I don't think your examples are rude, I'm merely responding to them.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

I also agree that her mother was very brave. However, I don't think it's right to torture a human being like that. It is what it is, torture. Doing something to another that is forced and emotionally and physically devastating.
I disagree with the torture of humans, and therefore I am pro abortion.
This isn't considering the fetus at this point. What about the living human being that is being put through an unbelievably amount of forced pain?

We're on the same page as far as torture goes, but maybe not quite as it pertains to the big picture regarding abortion. It's all a difficult and complex matter when you consider everything involved. I guess that's one reason why abortion is such a controversial issue. There's no absolute right answer because the whole thing begins with something wrong.

To consider only what the pregnant woman is faced with only puts other tortures out of mind. Abortion sometimes results in illness, injuries, or death of women, not mention the more common emotional trauma and remorse. As for their babies, it absolutely results in pain and death.

Imagine having no knowledge whatever of life on earth other than the comfort of the womb, the muffled sounds of your mother's voice and heartbeat, and then the sudden horror and pain of being dismembered.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

What evidence have you that the above described soul exists?

Well, there's a whole bunch of clear biblical evidence. I could put a bit of that together for you to reject, if you're interested. You might also consider the evidence of near death experiences and ghost sightings.

 

[McBell]

Well, there's a whole bunch of clear biblical evidence. I could put a bit of that together for you to reject, if you're interested. You might also consider the evidence of near death experiences and ghost sightings.

Ah, so nothing objective or empirical?

 

[Smart_Guy]

IMO, it isn't murder Smart Guy as the fetus does not have a life of its own yet. Yes, it is life albeit a very rudimentary form of life. It can't subsist on its own. I am not entirely sure what it was you asked other than what I responded to dear one. If I missed something, I'm sorry. You know I am rarely rude and try to be as kind as possible to everyone. As for your last remarks, no, in this country at present, the fetus doesn't have any legal rights to personhood, which is defined as a human with the ability to breathe independently. If a woman doesn't wish to carry that fetus, for whatever reasons she might have, she has the right to abort here. I, too, respect that you might disagree dear friend.

I'm sorry it makes you feel so sad. In truth, the one and only time I had one I was 15 years old and it was the product of rape. I would not normally have one and when I was old enough to practice sex that I participated in, I used birth control and never got pregnant until I wanted to. I am prochoice, meaning I support a woman's right o choose. That's all.

I really hope you are right, JS. I hope that the being growing in the womb is not a person with feelings that gets hurt or feels having a choice taken away from them because of the abortion in a way we cannot fathom. Abortion gives me the feeling when that being comes out it feels the same as taking a new born baby and drowning it suffocating until it dies, and as much as understand the need to have this abortion in the good specific cases, I have this sadness in me. I hope that's just me. I hope at least that it is not the case in the usual period an abortion takes place.

Please also allow me to remind that I'm not against abortion and that the health and the welfare of the mother comes in first place. All I'm thinking is about the possible feelings the aborted being could feel, and I hope they don't exists.

I'm really sorry about your bad experience, JS. I didn't mean to have my posts remind you about it. Please forgive my rudeness.

I know you're not. I don't think your examples are rude, I'm merely responding to them.

Thank you for your understanding, SR.

With respect.

 

[SomeRandom]

We're on the same page as far as torture goes, but maybe not quite as it pertains to the big picture regarding abortion. It's all a difficult and complex matter when you consider everything involved. I guess that's one reason why abortion is such a controversial issue. There's no absolute right answer because the whole thing begins with something wrong.

To consider only what the pregnant woman is faced with only puts other tortures out of mind. Abortion sometimes results in illness, injuries, or death of women, not mention the more common emotional trauma and remorse. As for their babies, it absolutely results in pain and death.

Imagine having no knowledge whatever of life on earth other than the comfort of the womb, the muffled sounds of your mother's voice and heartbeat, and then the sudden horror and pain of being dismembered.

Nothing but appeals to emotion. And obviously abortion has certain health risks. So does getting a tooth pulled out. It's called a medical procedure. Pregnancy isn't exactly a walk in the park and can result in illness, injury and even death to the woman.

 

[JoStories]

I'm so sorry to hear that such a terrible thing happened to you. Your experience obviously has to have a great influence on your point of view regarding abortion. It's also a definitive illustration of the associated evils of rape and incest. An atrocity committed against one innocent person subsequently necessitates an offense against another.

I can't say you should have regrets about your choice. If I were someone you knew well enough for a private conversation, and if we were discussing this, there are things I would ask and things I might say in the hope of helping you find a more complete sense of peace, but I certainly can't judge you.

if you wouldn't mind responding to one question, have you been able to forgive your grandfather?

I have no issue answering any questions you have. To answer the one you did ask, no. I have never and will never forgive my grandfather. However, that said, I have come to an understanding of this owing to my Buddhist path that I had to endure this to learn to be able to handle the issue when a man raped my daughter. Without having lived through the trauma myself, I would not have been able to manage as well as I did with my child. I have peace now and don't blame my grandfather. I know he was one sick individual who was haunted by his own demons. I hope this answers you. And you can ask anything you want. I don't have any problem as honesty is a thing I value dearly. Even here.

 

[JoStories]

I really hope you are right, JS. I hope that the being growing in the womb is not a person with feelings that gets hurt or feels having a choice taken away from them because of the abortion in a way we cannot fathom. Abortion gives me the feeling when that being comes out it feels the same as taking a new born baby and drowning it suffocating until it dies, and as much as understand the need to have this abortion in the good specific cases, I have this sadness in me. I hope that's just me. I hope at least that it is not the case in the usual period an abortion takes place.

Please also allow me to remind that I'm not against abortion and that the health and the welfare of the mother comes in first place. All I'm thinking is about the possible feelings the aborted being could feel, and I hope they don't exists.

I'm really sorry about your bad experience, JS. I didn't mean to have my posts remind you about it. Please forgive my rudeness.



Thank you for your understanding, SR.

With respect.

Smart Guy, you are so kind and gentle. I love that. You did not bother me at all darling. I have long come to terms with the lessons of my life, and that is how I view them. I totally hear your POV about abortion and respect that. I get that you're not against it. Neither am I for that matter. Like I said, normally, I would not have one but in the situation with my grandfather it was the best option at the time. I am not am embryologist so I don't know the ins and outs of whether a fetus feels anything. I certainly hope not.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Smart Guy, you are so kind and gentle.

So are you, ma'am.
Thank you, JS

 

[Cephus]

Ah, so nothing objective or empirical?

Of course not, the religious have nothing of the sort. It's all emotionally-charged mumbo jumbo nonsense.

 

[McBell]

Of course not, the religious have nothing of the sort. It's all emotionally-charged mumbo jumbo nonsense.

Well, the way he was throwing the word evidence around....

 

[columbus]

Of course not, the religious have nothing of the sort. It's all emotionally-charged mumbo jumbo nonsense.

Then there is us non religious people who can't get a rational answer to our concerns and beliefs.
What I get generally qualifies as unsupported assertions, emotional appeals, semantics, and really bad science.

Tom

 

[Smart_Guy]

Then there is us non religious people who can't get a rational answer to our concerns and beliefs.
What I get generally qualifies as unsupported assertions, emotional appeals, semantics, and really bad science.

Tom

Some views in Islam say that the soul gets in the growing being in the womb after 4 months. That's why Many Muslims believe that after the forth month abortion would be considered killing a life.

The above is just part of some of the views in Islam. I'm not stating it as a fact or trying to impose it on anyone.