nPeace
Veteran Member
Actually, I was thinking, not only in the last 100 years, but beyond. Not even during the great wars, and if there was WW3, not even then, but would there be another religion that would be neutral even then?
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Acts of violence in the name of the Baha’i Faith
- Thread starter Jim
- Start date
Jim
Nets of Wonder
(In a reply to Vinayaka)
The post I was responding to has been deleted. It listed some branches of some religions that have a history of non-violence. Some branches of Christianity, including Jehovah’s Witnesses, have a history of non-violence. I was pointing out that there are no branches of the Baha’i Faith that have used the Baha’i Faith as a reason for organized violence.
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Except for animals.
Now, that is quite common for Abrahamic religions (there are some positive exceptions) but nevertheless sadly he did not promote this love, peace and non-violence for animals.
Only in the USA every year approximately ten billion cattle, chickens, ducks, hogs, sheep, lambs and turkeys are murdered for food and about 51 billion sea animals.
Except for animals.
Now, that is quite common for Abrahamic religions (there are some positive exceptions) but nevertheless sadly he did not promote this love, peace and non-violence for animals.
Only in the USA every year approximately ten billion cattle, chickens, ducks, hogs, sheep, lambs and turkeys are murdered for food and about 51 billion sea animals.
Abdu'l-Baha taught that the people of the future would not eat meat.
In regards the treatment of animals:
"It is not only their fellow human beings that the beloved of God must treat with mercy and compassion, rather must they show forth the utmost loving-kindness toevery living creature. For in all physical respects, and where the animal spirit is concerned, the selfsame feelings are shared by animal and man ... The feelings are one and the same, whether ye inflict pain on man or on beast. There is no difference here whatever. And indeed ye do worse to harm an animal, for man hath a language, he can lodge a complaint, he can cry out and moan; if injured he can have recourse to the authorities and these will protect him from his aggressor. But the hapless beast is mute, able neither to express its hurt nor take its case to the authorities ... Therefore it is essential that ye show forth the utmost consideration to the animal, and that ye be even kinder to him than to your fellow man. Train your children from their earliest days to be infinitely tender and loving to animals. If an animal be sick, let them try to heal it, if it be hungry, let them feed it, if thirsty, let them quench its thirst, if weary, let them see that it rests."
So why did this dear man not instruct all of his followers to become strict vegetarians? If you say A, you also have to say B or you risk becoming a hypocrite.
People evolve, civilized people are no longer animals who feel the compulsion to behave like animals.
So spiritually elevated people adopted a lacto-vegetarian or even vegan diet already thousands of years ago.
In Western countries ever increasing numbers of people are adopting a vegetarian or vegan diet out of compassion for animals and concern for the state of the earth.
Vegetarian and vegan people are healthier and live quite a number of years longer than the average meat eater, that has been scientifically demonstrated to be true.
But most important of all, their conscience is clear regarding the totally unnecessary violence used against innocent animals.
People evolve, civilized people are no longer animals who feel the compulsion to behave like animals.
So spiritually elevated people adopted a lacto-vegetarian or even vegan diet already thousands of years ago.
In Western countries ever increasing numbers of people are adopting a vegetarian or vegan diet out of compassion for animals and concern for the state of the earth.
Vegetarian and vegan people are healthier and live quite a number of years longer than the average meat eater, that has been scientifically demonstrated to be true.
But most important of all, their conscience is clear regarding the totally unnecessary violence used against innocent animals.
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The Baha'i writings insisting on kindness to animals and suggest it would be better not to eat meat is that is possible. However, the Baha'i writings do not instruct Baha'is to become strict vegetarians and leave it to individuals to choose for themselves.
I personally don't believe the time is right to insist on vegetarianism as a universal law for all humanity as some cultures are not ready to make that change. Besisdes there are other more urgent issues.
For example:
1/ Improving international cooperation
2/ Improving tolerance and understanding between all peoples of faith
3/ Improving governance of human affairs at all levels with an emphasis on democratic methods
4/ Universally establishing the equality of men and women
5/ Establishing universal education
6/ Removing the extremes of wealth and poverty
7/ The universal establishment of a world embracing view where we see all men as one regardless of race, ethnicity or nation
8/ Further developing the means of preventing and resolving global conflict
to think of a few off the top of my head...
I disagree, the heating of our planet by climate change is one of the most urgent issues of our time. Adopting a plant based diet is one of the important ways to decrease the emissions of CO2 and keep the last remaining forests intact. Your preceptor of course was not yet aware of this urgent problem during his life time but for the sake of non-violence and for health reasons he could have prescribed a strict vegetarian diet for all of his followers.
But I've made my point, so let's concentrate on the violence against humans.
I don't want this to turn into something better left for the food or health subforum buuuuut...
This is why nutritional anthropologists hate paleo diets. Not because it steers people away from processed food which is a good thing, but because it pretends that eating like a caveman means eating what is 'natural for your body.' Which isn't how that works.
They eat what they have to in order to survive. Something we don't need to, and probably shouldn't, do.
PSA, I'm not a vegetarian or vegan. But there's no denying a well balanced vegetarian diet is as healthy if not healthier than a well balanced omnivorous one, and definitely more than a carnivorous one.
This is not how biology works. Not only is there vast differences in primate diets from opportunistic carrion eating all the way to obligate herbivore, which means no individual species should be generalized, but generalized practice is not generalized health. What they eat in the wild, what their environment supports for them, is not necessarily best for their health. Just because you evolved to *tolerate* a thing doesn't mean that thing is healthy for you. (Re: problems with dairy products in human nutrition even with populations with lactose tolerence.) We used to, as early humans, be able to digest raw meat much better. We used to eat all sorts of things that weren't good for us but we tolerated. (Grass root balls and a number of fruits which can cause long term problems.)
This is why nutritional anthropologists hate paleo diets. Not because it steers people away from processed food which is a good thing, but because it pretends that eating like a caveman means eating what is 'natural for your body.' Which isn't how that works.
Once again, their body tolerates through habitual process it does not mean it's 'more natural.' Much less more healthy. Actually the so called 'eskimo diet' of Greenland natives and ancient Canadian natives showed higher heart disease, bone loss (and parasitism) than modern populations, let alone more vegetarian based Eastern diets.
They eat what they have to in order to survive. Something we don't need to, and probably shouldn't, do.
Again, that doesn't mean anything when talking about individual species health. Feeding meat to a fruitivorous or herbivorous primate is still bad for its health no matter what the averages for primates say.
PSA, I'm not a vegetarian or vegan. But there's no denying a well balanced vegetarian diet is as healthy if not healthier than a well balanced omnivorous one, and definitely more than a carnivorous one.
The science is largely agreed on in regards global warming and I agree that a review of agricultural and farming practices is an important part of avoiding increasingly severe environmental consequences. However the implementation of any serious plan is clearly hindered by a lack of international cooperation and agreement (which I had at the top of my list).
Agreed and I'm not a vegetarian either. I'm certain that in the future that vegetarianism will be universally established.
I'm sorry to hear that the Baha'i movement is lagging behind in this repect, all that violence going on in those slaughter houses and you remaining a part of that horrific system. It would strengthen your message of peace and good will if you managed to change this fast.
There are farming practices that provide animals with excellent care until they are killed. There is increasingly the awareness and exposure of practices of cruelty in other farming methods. Organic farming is becoming more mainstream. Increasing numbers of people are becoming vegetarian. I have been in the past but choose not to currently for personal reasons.
Vegetarianism by country - Wikipedia
While its commendable you are a vegetarian, a far more important aspect of peace and good will is avoiding imposing our own beliefs on others.
Avoiding killing innocent creatures seems to me far more important than any other type of improvement in your actions you may think of. Interesting though to know more about where Baha'i followers put their priorities.
spirit_of_dawn
Active Member
Baha'is are like chameleons. They express different beliefs when arguing with people of different backgrounds. For example the discussion in this thread. When speaking with vegetarians they act like Baha'ism is all for vegetarianism diets. However they never tell you that Baha'u'llah was strictly against vegetarian diets:
"Say: O concourse of priests and monks! Eat ye of that which God hath made lawful unto you and do not shun meat. God hath, as a token of His grace, granted you leave to partake thereof save during a brief period. He, verily, is the Mighty, the Beneficent. Forsake all that ye possess and hold fast unto that which God hath purposed. This is that which profiteth you, if ye be of them that comprehend." (Baha'u'llah, Summons of the Lord of Hosts, Súriy-i-Haykal, no. 154)
"Say: O concourse of priests and monks! Eat ye of that which God hath made lawful unto you and do not shun meat. God hath, as a token of His grace, granted you leave to partake thereof save during a brief period. He, verily, is the Mighty, the Beneficent. Forsake all that ye possess and hold fast unto that which God hath purposed. This is that which profiteth you, if ye be of them that comprehend." (Baha'u'llah, Summons of the Lord of Hosts, Súriy-i-Haykal, no. 154)
I've never been able to fully comprehend this ... 'in the future' business. It seems like some sort of spiritual procrastination. In my view, right now is the future. So 'now' is a good time to start. So procrastination becomes a habit, unless there are incredibly good reasons of course. For vegetarianism, there is only one good reason I know of, and it is a medical condition.
This is probably related to the difference between tantric type of ideologies and more vedic ones. The latter are more theoretical (more religious) and the first consist more of effectively proven (more mystic) practices.
Baha'i seems more to be more religious or vedic, just like main stream christianity.
So just like with evangelical christianity they seem more concerned with having found "truth" or the "true way" than concerning themselves too much with experiencing or establishing the actual benefits or defects of that path or way. Their 'benefits" are hoped-for religious promises of rewards in the "after-life".
So if people point out any practical defects, this matters less to them, because those remarks or arguments are perceived as springing from another path that is "less thruthful" or "less reliable" and therefore worthy of being ignored or brushed over.
Rational arguments matter much less than the feeling of being with the "correct religion" or "the best prophet or Son of God".
It is this basic difference what seems to make communications between more tantric types of people and more vedic or religious types of people so relatively fruitless.
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That’s a great example of taking the sacred writings of a religion out of context to place your own spin on it. Meat is used as a metaphor for the Word of God for this day. Baha’u’llah is not talking about diet at all.
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, Pages 67-83
In regards vegetarianism the Baha’i writings are clear that this is desirable but not obligatory.
"Regarding the eating of animal flesh and abstinence therefrom, know thou of a certainty that, in the beginning of creation, God determined the food of every living being, and to eat contrary to that determination is not approved....Even without eating meat he would live with the utmost vigour and energy. For example, the community of the Brahmins in India do not eat meat; notwithstanding this they are not inferior to other nations in strength, power, vigour, outward senses or intellectual virtues. Truly, the killing of animals and the eating of their meat is somewhat contrary to pity and compassion, and if one can content oneself with cereals, fruit, oil and nuts, such as pistachios, almonds and so on, it would undoubtedly be better and more pleasing."
('Abdu'l-Bahá, from a Tablet - translated from the Persian; Health, Healing, and Nutrition, no. 17)
The Baha'is must be doing something right if a debate about their religion promoting violence has nothing much to discuss other than our founder didn't command us all to be vegetarians.
I love the irony of Muslims fabricating distortions of the Baha'i writings and stories to suggest the Baha'is are violent! We would be filling up pages and pages of posts on religious forum listing all the violence Muslims have perpetrated in the name of Islam in the last one hundred years, wouldn't we?
I love the irony of Muslims fabricating distortions of the Baha'i writings and stories to suggest the Baha'is are violent! We would be filling up pages and pages of posts on religious forum listing all the violence Muslims have perpetrated in the name of Islam in the last one hundred years, wouldn't we?