Acts of violence in the name of the Baha’i Faith

[Jim]

I love the irony of Muslims fabricating distortions of the Baha'i writings and stories to suggest the Baha'is are violent! We would be filling up pages and pages of posts on religious forum listing all the violence Muslims have perpetrated in the name of Islam in the last one hundred years, wouldn't we?

As a member of the Baha’i Faith, and as the person who started this thread, I feel impelled, as my last post in this thread, to denounce that stab at Muslims as exactly the kind of behavior that I think needs to stop.

 

[shunyadragon]

Baha'is are like chameleons. They express different beliefs when arguing with people of different backgrounds. For example the discussion in this thread. When speaking with vegetarians they act like Baha'ism is all for vegetarianism diets. However they never tell you that Baha'u'llah was strictly against vegetarian diets:

"Say: O concourse of priests and monks! Eat ye of that which God hath made lawful unto you and do not shun meat. God hath, as a token of His grace, granted you leave to partake thereof save during a brief period. He, verily, is the Mighty, the Beneficent. Forsake all that ye possess and hold fast unto that which God hath purposed. This is that which profiteth you, if ye be of them that comprehend." (Baha'u'llah, Summons of the Lord of Hosts, Súriy-i-Haykal, no. 154)

Selective citations do not tell the whole story. Of course, Baha'u'llah does not forbid eating of meat nor mandating a vegan or vegetarian diet, but . . .

From: BAHA
BAHA’I
"What will be the food of the future?" "Fruit and grains. The time will come when meat will no longer be eaten. Medical science is only in its infancy, yet it has shown that our natural diet is that which will grow out of the ground. The people will gradually develop up to the condition of this natural food."
'Abdu'l-Bahá, in Julia M. Grundy, Ten Days in the Light of Akka, Bahá’í Publishing Trust, Wilmette, 1979, pp. 8-9.

"As humanity progresses, meat will be used less and less, for the teeth of man are not carnivorous … The human teeth, the molars, are formed to grind grain. The front teeth, the incisors, are for fruits, etc. It is therefore quite apparent, according to the implements for eating, man's food is intended to be grain and not meat. When mankind is more fully developed the eating of meat will gradually cease."
'Abdu'l-Bahá, from "Star of the West", Vol.III, No.10, p29.
http://www.bcca.org/services/srb/texts.html

"[T]o blessed animals the utmost kindness must be shown, the more the better. Tenderness and loving-kindness are basic principles of God's heavenly Kingdom. Ye should most carefully bear this matter in mind."
'Abdu'l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, complied by the Universal House of Justice, Bahá’í Publishing Trust, Wilmette, 1996, p. 168.

You sure have a vindictive grudge against the Baha'i Faith. Please cite ALL the relevant material on a subject before you make slanderous accusations.

 

[Vinayaka]

(In a reply to Vinayaka)


The post I was responding to has been deleted. It listed some branches of some religions that have a history of non-violence. Some branches of Christianity, including Jehovah’s Witnesses, have a history of non-violence. I was pointing out that there are no branches of the Baha’i Faith that have used the Baha’i Faith as a reason for organized violence.

When you look at Hinduism, though, its incredibly vast, not homogeneous at all. Many have compared that vastness of ideas to combining all the Abrahamic religions into one. Call it Jerusalamism, and Baha'i being one sect within that. So yes, Hinduism as a vast conglomerate of a billion adherents has had it's moments, but the doctrine of ahimsa goes as far back as the Vedas, and I'm sure several smaller subdivisions would parallel the Bahai' or the JWs in non-violence.

 

[Vinayaka]

@Jim Although the Gita is the most well known of ancient Hindu scripture, my favorite ethical one is the Tirukkural, sworn on by courts of law in South India. It's big on ahimsa and vegetarianism, and universal and non-denominational in nature.

Tirukkuṛaḷ - Wikipedia

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Baha'is must be doing something right if a debate about their religion promoting violence has nothing much to discuss other than our founder didn't command us all to be vegetarians.

Now that is a good point.

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

All I can think of is Abdu’l-Baha, The Face Slapper.

Then again in traditional Zen, they hit you with the stick. "0)

References, please.
Regards

_______________

https://www.quora.com/Did-Abdul-Baha-ever-slap-anyone
Abdu'l-Baha the face slapper. Multiple instances where Abdu'l-Baha slapped people in the face! : exbahai
Baha’ism and Violence: Abdu’l-Baha the Face Slapper - Baha'i principles

 

[paarsurrey]

When you look at Hinduism, though, its incredibly vast, not homogeneous at all. Many have compared that vastness of ideas to combining all the Abrahamic religions into one. Call it Jerusalamism, and Baha'i being one sect within that. So yes, Hinduism as a vast conglomerate of a billion adherents has had it's moments, but the doctrine of ahimsa goes as far back as the Vedas, and I'm sure several smaller subdivisions would parallel the Bahai' or the JWs in non-violence.

How would one reflect on Ahimsa believing India having nuclear weaponry?
Regards

 

[Vinayaka]

How would one reflect on Ahimsa believing India having nuclear weaponry?
Regards

That's a tough one, Paar. Nuclear weaponry is developed mostly by everyone as a method to defend themselves, given others have it. With Pakistan or China sitting next door perhaps willing to pounce, it's probably a good idea. I'm all for reduction, but who can you trust to actually do it? Our version of ahimsa isn't unconditional passive non-violence. That would lead to sure ruin. In the Tirukkural itself (I believe) it says that if the tiger enters the village, it's your duty to kill it. (Or these days, drug it, and remove it, but it may return too, so eventually there may be no choice.) So there are siome very rare exceptions.

What would you say? Do you trust China or Pakistan not to invade India? Would you defend your family if an intruder came in?

 

[paarsurrey]

That's a tough one, Paar. Nuclear weaponry is developed mostly by everyone as a method to defend themselves, given others have it. With Pakistan or China sitting next door perhaps willing to pounce, it's probably a good idea. I'm all for reduction, but who can you trust to actually do it? Our version of ahimsa isn't unconditional passive non-violence. That would lead to sure ruin. In the Tirukkural itself (I believe) it says that if the tiger enters the village, it's your duty to kill it. (Or these days, drug it, and remove it, but it may return too, so eventually there may be no choice.) So there are siome very rare exceptions.

What would you say? Do you trust China or Pakistan not to invade India? Would you defend your family if an intruder came in?

One mentioned Ahimsa, and my question was in relation to that, not the politics.
Aryans when they invaded Indian-Sub continent they were riding on the Chariots full of weaponry driven by horses and they fought with the people who had carts driven by he-cows or bulls, a holy animal of dharma. Right, please?

Regards

 

[Vinayaka]

One mentioned Ahimsa, and my question was in relation to that, not the politics.
Aryans when they invaded Indian-Sub continent they were riding on the Chariots full of weaponry driven by horses and they fought with the people who had carts driven by he-cows or bulls, a holy animal of dharma. Right, please?

Regards

lol ... Where did you get this information?

After that, and my best attempt at answering already done, I guess I have nothing else to say.

 

[danieldemol]

Baha'is are like chameleons. They express different beliefs when arguing with people of different backgrounds. For example the discussion in this thread. When speaking with vegetarians they act like Baha'ism is all for vegetarianism diets. However they never tell you that Baha'u'llah was strictly against vegetarian diets:

"Say: O concourse of priests and monks! Eat ye of that which God hath made lawful unto you and do not shun meat. God hath, as a token of His grace, granted you leave to partake thereof save during a brief period. He, verily, is the Mighty, the Beneficent. Forsake all that ye possess and hold fast unto that which God hath purposed. This is that which profiteth you, if ye be of them that comprehend." (Baha'u'llah, Summons of the Lord of Hosts, Súriy-i-Haykal, no. 154)

I'll say the following at the risk of irritating everyone - a more reasonable evaluation in my opinion is that Abdul-Baha simply forgot this passage, and answered vegetarians on the basis of the facts known to Him at the time. That being said, Abdul-Baha answered veg and non veg the same, thus He wasn't a chameleon, and since a regime change occurred with Abdul-Baha being the authoritative interpreter of the Baha'i teachings at the passing of Baha'u'llah, now all Baha'i naturally will teach the importance of a vegetarian diet.

Therefore in conclusion I would say you are not wrong about Baha'u'llah being opposed to vegetarianism, but wrong about Baha'is showing different faces to different people (ie being "chameleons" in your words).

 

[Marcion]

The Baha'is must be doing something right if a debate about their religion promoting violence has nothing much to discuss other than our founder didn't command us all to be vegetarians.

So please tell me what type of violence is worse than killing sentient creatures just to satisfy the pallate or for other pleasures?

 

[Marcion]

When you look at Hinduism, though, its incredibly vast, not homogeneous at all. Many have compared that vastness of ideas to combining all the Abrahamic religions into one. Call it Jerusalamism, and Baha'i being one sect within that. So yes, Hinduism as a vast conglomerate of a billion adherents has had it's moments, but the doctrine of ahimsa goes as far back as the Vedas, and I'm sure several smaller subdivisions would parallel the Bahai' or the JWs in non-violence.

In my country the Abrahamic religions are increasingly called 'desert religions' and they are generally viewed in a negative way for their often dogmatic, irrational and sectarian (divisive) outlook as compared to other paths. Their origin is seen as more primitive due to the harsh circumstances of the people who inhabited those barren desert type lands where these religions were conceived.

 

[Dawnofhope]

So please tell me what type of violence is worse than killing sentient creatures just to satisfy the pallate or for other pleasures?

As previously stated Baha’is don’t believe it’s against God’s laws to eat meat but we should ensure animals are treated with care and compassion with farming practices. Killing animals for pleasure is contrary to God’s law.

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[oldbadger]

......... .................the Baha’i faith is the only case in which there is no branch of the religion which has ever used the religion as an excuse for organized violence, even in defense against multitudes of its members being murdered. ......................

Oh dear....... the stuff that Bahais claim.
Many Christian denominations are non violent and conscientious objectors to fighting.
And have you ever heard of the Quakers?
What about the Amish?
What about the JWs?
Do Jains go to war? @Vinayaka... ?

Enough there to discount yet one more Bahai claim.

But in a Bahai World your armed Bahai Police Forces would be using violence on a World scale, just as our law enforcers and military do today.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'll say the following at the risk of irritating everyone - a more reasonable evaluation in my opinion is that Abdul-Baha simply forgot this passage, and answered vegetarians on the basis of the facts known to Him at the time.

No irritation at all I will give you my thoughts.

From my understanding Abdul'baha did not give a different answer than Baha'u'llah, but clarified the matter in more detail. We also do not know what writings have been lost and we can not know what is yet to be translated.

Abdul'baha is saying that mankind in time will voluntarily give up meat and partake of a more healthy less complex diet. I actually gave up all red meat in late 2014. I do still eat a bit of Chicken and fish.

To me the time is not right, many millions more would starve if meat was not eaten, as a unified world producing non meat products for all, is still quite some way off.

Regards Tony

 

[Marcion]

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

It seems you have lost the argument, cutting short a life and killing is a terrible form of violence no matter how you try to twist things (again and again and again ...).

 

[Dawnofhope]

It seems you have lost the argument, cutting short a life and killing is a terrible form of violence no matter how you try to twist things (again and again and again ...).

I’m not arguing with you, rather informing you of my beliefs. Each other’s views are clear enough.

 

[Marcion]

I’m not arguing with you, rather informing you of my beliefs. Each other’s views are clear enough.

If you are refusing to bring in any arguments then why should I continue talking with you on this subject? I already know that your preceptor did not try to stop this cruel violence against animals by his followers, so if you do not wish to debate this fact then please state this from the beginning and save me a useless effort.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I doubt if anyone can. The Baha’i Faith is founded on the Teachings of Bahaullah who promoted love, peace and non-violence.

Except for animals.
Now, that is quite common for Abrahamic religions (there are some positive exceptions) but nevertheless sadly he did not promote this love, peace and non-violence for animals.
Only in the USA every year approximately ten billion cattle, chickens, ducks, hogs, sheep, lambs and turkeys are murdered for food and about 51 billion sea animals.

Abdu'l-Baha taught that the people of the future would not eat meat.

In regards the treatment of animals:

"It is not only their fellow human beings that the beloved of God must treat with mercy and compassion, rather must they show forth the utmost loving-kindness toevery living creature. For in all physical respects, and where the animal spirit is concerned, the selfsame feelings are shared by animal and man ... The feelings are one and the same, whether ye inflict pain on man or on beast. There is no difference here whatever. And indeed ye do worse to harm an animal, for man hath a language, he can lodge a complaint, he can cry out and moan; if injured he can have recourse to the authorities and these will protect him from his aggressor. But the hapless beast is mute, able neither to express its hurt nor take its case to the authorities ... Therefore it is essential that ye show forth the utmost consideration to the animal, and that ye be even kinder to him than to your fellow man. Train your children from their earliest days to be infinitely tender and loving to animals. If an animal be sick, let them try to heal it, if it be hungry, let them feed it, if thirsty, let them quench its thirst, if weary, let them see that it rests."

The Baha'i writings insisting on kindness to animals and suggest it would be better not to eat meat is that is possible. However, the Baha'i writings do not instruct Baha'is to become strict vegetarians and leave it to individuals to choose for themselves.

I personally don't believe the time is right to insist on vegetarianism as a universal law for all humanity as some cultures are not ready to make that change. Besisdes there are other more urgent issues.

For example:
1/ Improving international cooperation
2/ Improving tolerance and understanding between all peoples of faith
3/ Improving governance of human affairs at all levels with an emphasis on democratic methods
4/ Universally establishing the equality of men and women
5/ Establishing universal education
6/ Removing the extremes of wealth and poverty
7/ The universal establishment of a world embracing view where we see all men as one regardless of race, ethnicity or nation
8/ Further developing the means of preventing and resolving global conflict

to think of a few off the top of my head...

I disagree, the heating of our planet by climate change is one of the most urgent issues of our time. Adopting a plant based diet is one of the important ways to decrease the emissions of CO2 and keep the last remaining forests intact. Your preceptor of course was not yet aware of this urgent problem during his life time but for the sake of non-violence and for health reasons he could have prescribed a strict vegetarian diet for all of his followers.
But I've made my point, so let's concentrate on the violence against humans.

The science is largely agreed on in regards global warming and I agree that a review of agricultural and farming practices is an important part of avoiding increasingly severe environmental consequences. However the implementation of any serious plan is clearly hindered by a lack of international cooperation and agreement (which I had at the top of my list).

I'm sorry to hear that the Baha'i movement is lagging behind in this repect, all that violence going on in those slaughter houses and you remaining a part of that horrific system. It would strengthen your message of peace and good will if you managed to change this fast.

There are farming practices that provide animals with excellent care until they are killed. There is increasingly the awareness and exposure of practices of cruelty in other farming methods. Organic farming is becoming more mainstream. Increasing numbers of people are becoming vegetarian. I have been in the past but choose not to currently for personal reasons.

Vegetarianism by country - Wikipedia

While its commendable you are a vegetarian, a far more important aspect of peace and good will is avoiding imposing our own beliefs on others.

Avoiding killing innocent creatures seems to me far more important than any other type of improvement in your actions you may think of. Interesting though to know more about where Baha'i followers put their priorities.

The Baha'is must be doing something right if a debate about their religion promoting violence has nothing much to discuss other than our founder didn't command us all to be vegetarians.

So please tell me what type of violence is worse than killing sentient creatures just to satisfy the pallate or for other pleasures?

As previously stated Baha’is don’t believe it’s against God’s laws to eat meat but we should ensure animals are treated with care and compassion with farming practices. Killing animals for pleasure is contrary to God’s law.

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

It seems you have lost the argument, cutting short a life and killing is a terrible form of violence no matter how you try to twist things (again and again and again ...).

I’m not arguing with you, rather informing you of my beliefs. Each other’s views are clear enough.

If you are refusing to bring in any arguments then why should I continue talking with you on this subject? I already know that your preceptor did not try to stop this cruel violence against animals by his followers, so if you do not wish to debate this fact then please state this from the beginning and save me a useless effort.

Sorry you feel that way. I thought it had been a useful discussion. All the best.