Acts of violence in the name of the Baha’i Faith

[spirit_of_dawn]

Fair enough......
When Bahais criticise folks for accurately citing Bahai writings, and can only throw personal insults etc, you know you've got them on the ropes.

You know you've got them on the ropes when you search for one of your posts and cannot find it only to realize it has been completely deleted by the MODS without even warning you or sending a message. The post I put in this thread documenting the violent acts of Baha'is and their leaders has disappeared without a trace. It's only remnant is a partial quote by one the members here: Acts of violence in the name of the Baha’i Faith

[edit: apparently the posts were reported and deleted because I had too many posts targeting Baha'is]

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Is there anything in Baha'i faith that might be used to justify violence? I think there are obvious ideas use to justify war and violence in the Abrahamic faiths. How does the Baha'i faith view these earlier religions?

That is a good question. There is allowable Justified Violence in the Baha'i Writings. It has also been made clear it is better to be killed then kill. Thus any action we take in a given situation must be balanced.

The Drug Trade is an example where the use of force may be considered;

"...O ye lovers of God! In this, the cycle of Almighty God, violence and force, constraint and oppression, are one and all condemned. It is, however, mandatory that the use of opium be prevented by any means whatsoever, that perchance the human race may be delivered from this most powerful of plagues. And otherwise, woe and misery to whoso falleth short of his duty to his Lord...."

Full talk - Book of Laws - Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 238-239

This is the logical way, as being absolute passive could mean extermination and this is why Muhammad allowed for defense of Faith. In situations where life or limb is in danger, the Baha'i's have been advised that they must apply for Justice from an Authority and if there is no Authority available, may take actions to protect their family only to the extent to acheive that aim.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So you are telling me that according to Abdu'l-Baha when Baha'u'llah states that only for a brief period of time people should abstain from eating meat, "brief period" means "a very long period" starting from a certain time in the future to eternity.

As I already told you I suffer from an acute form of dumbness and irrationality, and I will never understand how the above statement makes sense.

A day for God is as a 1000 years. Each Message from God is a 'Day of God'. Time is our illusion and as man has been eating meat since before we have records, so a few more 10's of years is a short time.

Many choose to remain oblivious of what is to come.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

You know you've got them on the ropes when you search for one of your posts and cannot find it only to realize it has been completely deleted by the MODS without even warning you or sending a message. The post I put in this thread documenting the violent acts of Baha'is and their leaders has disappeared without a trace. It's only remnant is a partial quote by one the members here: Acts of violence in the name of the Baha’i Faith

Is this even allowed on this forum? Removing a post without warning or explanation?

I don't know, spirit of dawn....... I'm not a mod.

You may have received a personal message to explain all, or maybe you will soon?

But Bahais do throw personal insult when they feel a need to......... I've been called a demon (before now) and all kinds of things....

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You know you've got them on the ropes when you search for one of your posts and cannot find it only to realize it has been completely deleted by the MODS without even warning you or sending a message. The post I put in this thread documenting the violent acts of Baha'is and their leaders has disappeared without a trace. It's only remnant is a partial quote by one the members here: Acts of violence in the name of the Baha’i Faith

Is this even allowed on this forum? Removing a post without warning or explanation?

Just so you do know, the advice is not to dwell too much on these types of accusations. Thus we will post an occasional reply stating what a Baha'i sees the writings are saying and not what a person using their own agenda wants to tell people they say.

But we will not answer them all, as basically it is feeding sour grapes and this is an insult to those that read these threads in all sincerity of wanting true understanding.

Peace be with you and all, Regards Tony

 

[shunyadragon]

Whoa there! I don't know that member at all, but surely that is unfair, because Bahais have a record of selectively citing Bahai writing to justify their claims? If the Bahai writings were genuine then surely you must answer the member's points?

I have followed this member for some time @spirit_of_dawn, and I have no problem with this conclusion.

 

[shunyadragon]

Fair enough......
When Bahais criticise folks for accurately citing Bahai writings, and can only throw personal insults etc, you know you've got them on the ropes.

@spirit_of_dawn put on the self inflicted ropes for selectively citing Baha'i writings to justify an agenda, and frequently @spirit_of_dawn called to the carpet, so to speak, for her attacks.

 

[shunyadragon]

Is there anything in Baha'i faith that might be used to justify violence? I think there are obvious ideas use to justify war and violence in the Abrahamic faiths. How does the Baha'i faith view these earlier religions?

The earlier ancient religions reflect the tribal world, warring kingdoms and culture they were revealed in, and not the whole Bible is Revelation. Parts of the Bible reflect the fallible human view of their place and their enemies.

Religion is progressive and the Baha'is believe we are evolving away from the tribal and kingdom culture of the past.

 

[shunyadragon]

You know you've got them on the ropes when you search for one of your posts and cannot find it only to realize it has been completely deleted by the MODS without even warning you or sending a message. The post I put in this thread documenting the violent acts of Baha'is and their leaders has disappeared without a trace. It's only remnant is a partial quote by one the members here: Acts of violence in the name of the Baha’i Faith

[edit: apparently the posts were reported and deleted because I had too many posts targeting Baha'is]

The removal was justified.

 

[Nakosis]

The earlier ancient religions reflect the tribal world, warring kingdoms and culture they were revealed in, and not the whole Bible is Revelation. Parts of the Bible reflect the fallible human view of their place and their enemies.

Religion is progressive and the Baha'is believe we are evolving away fro the tribal and kingdom culture of the past.

Wouldn't it have been easier for God to say in the beginning to say, thou shall not have slave or posses other human beings as cattle? If God wanted to provide man with a set of values, I think God missed a real opportunity there.

 

[shunyadragon]

Wouldn't it have been easier for God to say in the beginning to say, thou shall not have slave or posses other human beings as cattle? If God wanted to provide man with a set of values, I think God missed a real opportunity there.

Well. . . ah . . . you are speaking hypothetically about what you think God must?, could?, or should do. That is like saying God should simply come down to the earth and control things personally. Are you God, or are you making up the criteria on how God must be, IF God exists? This is as extraordinary like the claim that the fundamentalists believe in a literal Bible.

God Created human naturally,and fallible, and the evolving changing nature of our universe, solar system, and the earth as it id naturally evolving and changing over time. That is way of our physical existence, and IF God exists God reflects the nature of our physical existence, and not the ancient primitive vies of old religions.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Wouldn't it have been easier for God to say in the beginning to say, thou shall not have slave or posses other human beings as cattle? If God wanted to provide man with a set of values, I think God missed a real opportunity there.

God Created human naturally,and fallible, and the evolving changing nature of our universe, solar system, and the earth as it id naturally evolving and changing over time

Yes I also see It is an evolution of knowledge as we advance both physically and spiritually and come to know what we really are.

For me to know what a slave is, one must first have slaves. The God given lawful and rightful treatment of a slave being the most important aspect.

Then we have to learn that to be a slave in this day has become a choice. We are told that in this age, that slaves are no longer lawful, but that we must one and all, offer willingly to serve all other people. We are to become a willing servant to all.

If mankind could have accepted that many yeras ago, what a different world we would have, but I ask, how many will implement this advice in this age?

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Wouldn't it have been easier for God to say in the beginning to say, thou shall not have slave or posses other human beings as cattle? If God wanted to provide man with a set of values, I think God missed a real opportunity there.

Unfortunately God continued to support slavery at the end (in the NT) with the words of Paul. Quite dreadful....

Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. (1 Peter 2:18)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear (Ephesians 6:5)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything (Colossians 3:22)

Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them (Titus 2:9)

Let all who are under a yoke as bondservants[a] regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled. 2 Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground that they are brothers; rather they must serve all the better since those who benefit by their good service are believers and beloved. (1 Timothy 6:1-2)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Unfortunately God continued to support slavery at the end (in the NT) with the words of Paul. Quite dreadful....

Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. (1 Peter 2:18)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear (Ephesians 6:5)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything (Colossians 3:22)

Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them (Titus 2:9)

Let all who are under a yoke as bondservants[a] regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled. 2 Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground that they are brothers; rather they must serve all the better since those who benefit by their good service are believers and beloved. (1 Timothy 6:1-2)

Baha'u'llah has asked us to be servants to all Humanity. Abdul'baha, his son, was a gifted example of a true servant.

My view is that God especially loves humble servants.

Service is a high calling. It is not a bad thing. I see these passages give meaning to what is required of all of us in this age.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Baha'u'llah has asked us to be servants to all Humanity.

Source? Please?

Service is a high calling. It is not a bad thing. I see these passages give meaning to what is required of all of us in this age.

Regards Tony

There is quite a huge difference between employment, contracts and then slavery.

 

[oldbadger]

Baha'u'llah has asked us to be servants to all Humanity. Abdul'baha, his son, was a gifted example of a true servant.

My view is that God especially loves humble servants.

Service is a high calling. It is not a bad thing. I see these passages give meaning to what is required of all of us in this age.

Regards Tony

Hmmmm..... I thought so...... you have misrepresented Bahauallah, it seems.

My post showed that Paul supported slavery, several verses which Christian slave traders and keepers no doubt clung to.......

Bahaullah never supported slavery, so your suggestions are flat wrong:-

It is forbidden you to trade in slaves, be they men or women. It is not for him who is himself a servant to buy another of God's servants, and this hath been prohibited in His Holy Tablet.
Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 45)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Source? Please?

To me It is the Mesage of Baha'u'llah, He gave us Abdul'baha as a gift to show us what true service is, what following the cause of God really means.

"Service to the sons and the daughters of the Kingdom is the diadem of everlasting glory with which ye have crowned your heads, the garment of eternal sovereignty with which ye have adorned your bodies, and the throne of majesty and grandeur of heaven upon which ye sat." (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Tablets of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá v3, p. 533)

Serving humanity in this age, at this particular time we are alive, is in building the foundations for a lasting unity.

There is quite a huge difference between employment, contracts and then slavery.

Yes as Slavery is now abolished, all servants are free to choose their occupation in life.

Baha'u'llah has said all people are to work, no person should sit idle and there is no retirement. We are to all contribute to society in any way we can.

I am happy with this. After my working life, which is not far away, I hope that craft pursuits can maintain an income as both my wife and I love crafts. The less we burden others would be great.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hmmmm..... I thought so...... you have misrepresented Bahauallah, it seems.

My post showed that Paul supported slavery, several verses which Christian slave traders and keepers no doubt clung to.......

Bahaullah never supported slavery, so your suggestions are flat wrong:-

It is forbidden you to trade in slaves, be they men or women. It is not for him who is himself a servant to buy another of God's servants, and this hath been prohibited in His Holy Tablet.
Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 45)

It is an evolution of understanding about what is a slave. A true and loyal servant.

In this day Baha'u'llah has abolished Slavery and offered that all of us consider to become servants of each other. That each of us earn a living to support family and community and humanity in any way we can manage.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

Baha'u'llah has said ........ there is no retirement.

Source?

 

[oldbadger]

It is an evolution of understanding about what is a slave. A true and loyal servant.

In this day Baha'u'llah has abolished Slavery and offered that all of us consider to become servants of each other. That each of us earn a living to support family and community and humanity in any way we can manage.

Regards Tony

A slave is slave!
No freedom. Domination. Enforcement. Mistreatment.

You're talking about something else when you mention service.