Acts of violence in the name of the Baha’i Faith

[oldbadger]

What is not being considered, is if or when the percentage of Baha'i's reaches this stage, then mankind would have already chastised itself to the a level of depravity, that no one in the future will ever want to repeat this age again.

No, I didn't give such an idea any consideration, not for a second. If mankind should find itself at such an impasse there will be hundreds of cults, sects and religions all proclaiming various prophecies and proofs, and with any luck the remnants of mankind will ditch the lot in favour of a secular system.

The New World order will be built out of the ruins that this day has produced.

That looks a bit like the foreword to Terminator.

Look at the news and places where people used to live in Syria and this is but one place on this planet. Look at the Natural phenomenon increasing daily, it all ties into the sickness we as humanity have brought upon ourselves.

Baha'u'llah has said learn war no more.

Regards Tony

Lots of people have promoted 'No more War', but I would not trust Bahai to replace anything, because it seems to have a history of incorrigible story telling about its past, present and with future promises, which, even when facts are shown to it in high resolution it shows determination to repeat all, over and over again.

We will hear the stories that we've debunked over many months again......... and again..... and be challenged to disprove same again and again, on and on.

Let's hope that mankind can find a system with straight history, straight claims and deep integrity for our survival into the future.

 

[oldbadger]

OB, I really don't think we have anything to worry about, given the slowing of growth, if not decline. Small dog, big bark.

Yes....... Bahai has declined here in East Kent over 50 years. There may have been about 15 followers back then but I don't think that there could be half a dozen now.

Queen Victoria may have been right. She commented to the effect that if Bahai was good then it would flourish, if not it would fade, or something close to that. It's fading here.

I don't want any theocratic system to take control of the World. If I want to feel terrified then I would prefer to watch a 'wrong turn' movie, not actually have to live in it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, I didn't give such an idea any consideration, not for a second. If mankind should find itself at such an impasse there will be hundreds of cults, sects and religions all proclaiming various prophecies and proofs, and with any luck the remnants of mankind will ditch the lot in favour of a secular system.

This will be attempted. It will fail

Let's hope that mankind can find a system with straight history, straight claims and deep integrity for our survival into the future.

That will emerge after the above failed attempt and as time unfolds.

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey wrote:

"The above teaching , not to make a war to convert others to one's religion or to spread religion is peaceful. Well, it is the same as Islam has."

My response:

Jihad (Struggle) or Holy War applies to defending the community of the faithful and was applied to the defense of Medina..

Read the summary in Wikipedia:

Jihad (English: /dʒɪˈhɑːd/; Arabic: جهاد‎ jihād [dʒɪˈhaːd]) is an Arabic word which literally means striving or struggling, especially with a praiseworthy aim.[1][2][3][4] It can have many shades of meaning in an Islamic context, such as struggle against one's evil inclinations, an exertion to convert unbelievers, or efforts toward the moral betterment of society,[1][2][5] though it is most frequently associated with war.[6] In classical Islamic law, the term often refers to armed struggle against unbelievers,[2][3] while modernist Islamic scholars generally equate military jihad with defensive warfare.[7][8]

Jihad - Wikipedia

Read the quotes I've cited above. It's not the same as Baha'i teaching. Baha'u'llah abrogated Holy War in this dispensation: "....the law of holy war hath been blotted out from the Book".

~ Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 241
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 240-241


paarasurrey:

I have two questions: (1) What is manifestation of G-d, while replying please quote from
"The Kitáb-i-Aqdas – The Most Holy Book" of Bahaullah?

My reply:

The Kitab-i-Aqdas mostly deals with laws and ordinances and some abrogation of laws of previous dispensations such as "Holy War". But there is a note in the Kitab-i-Aqdas that refers to the Manifestation of God:

75. He Who is the Dawning-place of God’s Cause hath no partner in the Most Great Infallibility. ¶47
In the Tablet of Ishráqát, Bahá’u’lláh affirms that the Most Great Infallibility is confined to the Manifestations of God.

Chapter 45 in Some Answered Questions is devoted to an explanation by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá of this verse of the Aqdas. In this chapter He stresses, among other things, the inseparability of essential “infallibility” from the Manifestations of God, and asserts that “whatever emanates from Them is identical with the truth, and conformable to reality,” that “They are not under the shadow of the former laws,” and “Whatever They say is the word of God, and whatever They perform is an upright action.”

paarasurrey asked:

(2) Has one read Quran from cover to cover, please? Please don't answer if it is personal/private matter.

My reply:

Yes I've read the Qur'an as the Baha'i Writings also cite various passages from the Qur'an.

"paarasurrey asked:
(2) Has one read Quran from cover to cover, please? Please don't answer if it is personal/private matter.
My reply:
Yes I've read the Qur'an as the Baha'i Writings also cite various passages from the Qur'an." Unquote

Thanks for answering in an affirmative manner that one has read the Quran, so if one quotes for Quran then we can discuss if the quotation is supported by the context of Quran or not.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey wrote:

"The above teaching , not to make a war to convert others to one's religion or to spread religion is peaceful. Well, it is the same as Islam has."

My response:

Jihad (Struggle) or Holy War applies to defending the community of the faithful and was applied to the defense of Medina..

Read the summary in Wikipedia:

Jihad (English: /dʒɪˈhɑːd/; Arabic: جهاد‎ jihād [dʒɪˈhaːd]) is an Arabic word which literally means striving or struggling, especially with a praiseworthy aim.[1][2][3][4] It can have many shades of meaning in an Islamic context, such as struggle against one's evil inclinations, an exertion to convert unbelievers, or efforts toward the moral betterment of society,[1][2][5] though it is most frequently associated with war.[6] In classical Islamic law, the term often refers to armed struggle against unbelievers,[2][3] while modernist Islamic scholars generally equate military jihad with defensive warfare.[7][8]

Jihad - Wikipedia

Read the quotes I've cited above. It's not the same as Baha'i teaching. Baha'u'llah abrogated Holy War in this dispensation: "....the law of holy war hath been blotted out from the Book".

~ Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 241
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 240-241


paarasurrey:

I have two questions: (1) What is manifestation of G-d, while replying please quote from
"The Kitáb-i-Aqdas – The Most Holy Book" of Bahaullah?

My reply:

The Kitab-i-Aqdas mostly deals with laws and ordinances and some abrogation of laws of previous dispensations such as "Holy War". But there is a note in the Kitab-i-Aqdas that refers to the Manifestation of God:

75. He Who is the Dawning-place of God’s Cause hath no partner in the Most Great Infallibility. ¶47
In the Tablet of Ishráqát, Bahá’u’lláh affirms that the Most Great Infallibility is confined to the Manifestations of God.

Chapter 45 in Some Answered Questions is devoted to an explanation by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá of this verse of the Aqdas. In this chapter He stresses, among other things, the inseparability of essential “infallibility” from the Manifestations of God, and asserts that “whatever emanates from Them is identical with the truth, and conformable to reality,” that “They are not under the shadow of the former laws,” and “Whatever They say is the word of God, and whatever They perform is an upright action.”

paarasurrey asked:

(2) Has one read Quran from cover to cover, please? Please don't answer if it is personal/private matter.

My reply:

Yes I've read the Qur'an as the Baha'i Writings also cite various passages from the Qur'an.

"paarsurrey:
I have two questions: (1) What is manifestation of G-d, while replying please quote from
"The Kitáb-i-Aqdas – The Most Holy Book" of Bahaullah?
My reply:The Kitab-i-Aqdas mostly deals with laws and ordinances and some abrogation of laws of previous dispensations such as "Holy War". But there is a note in the Kitab-i-Aqdas that refers to the Manifestation of God" Unquote.

I get from Bahai.org:
"The Kitáb-i-Aqdas – The Most Holy Book".
It is described as "the most Holy Book".

Did Bahaullah claim that Kitab-i-Aqdas is "the most holy book"? If yes, then it is the core book of Bahaullah/Bahaism. I intend to read it again and compare it with Quran for my own benefit.
My liking is for the core books of a religion. For that matter, I will need
the original authoritative text of it in the original language it was written by Bahaullah whether in Farsi or in Arabic.

Regards

 

[arthra]

"old" badger wrote:

"Many political movements (and imo Bahai is a political movement, estranged from all others) have been spoken of, written as... peaceful, wonderful Worlds, and to describe Bahai today as peace full is not quite how many of us perceive its reality would be once developed into a movement of billions."

Baha'is are not a "political" movement. To be a Baha'i you cannot belong to a political party. Also we cannot run for a partisan political office. Some Baha'is have been elected to say a judgeship however. I've served on a non-political commission in my city.

"Your Assembly should understand that Bahá'ís do not engage in political activities nor belong to political parties, but may freely undertake non-political administrative work with governments may hold appointive posts which are not political in character, or may serve on local councils if they do not campaign for office and are not required to undertake partisan political activities."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of the Leeward Islands, February 15, 1982) 445

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 444)


"old" badger wrote:

Please tell, how many crimes would attract the death penalty, and by what means would executions be carried out, in a Bahai World? Let us start there, then we could move on to Bahai World policing and the form that it would take.

"The law of Bahá'u'lláh prescribes the death penalty for
murder and arson, with the alternative of life imprisonment
(see note 87)."

~ Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 203

There are no specifics about "what means would executions be carried out".

 

[arthra]

Did Bahaullah claim that Kitab-i-Aqdas is "the most holy book"? If yes, then it is the core book of Bahaullah/Bahaism. I intend to read it again and compare it with Quran for my own benefit.

Once again the Kitab-I-Aqdas ("Most Holy Book") deals more with laws and ordinances for Baha'is. You can read it online at:

Kitáb-i-Aqdas

"The laws revealed by Bahá'u'lláh in the Aqdas are, whenever practicable and not in direct conflict with the Civil Law of the land, absolutely binding on every believer or Bahá'í institution whether in the East or in the West. Certain ... laws should be regarded by all believers as universally and vitally applicable at the present time. Others have been formulated in anticipation of a state of society destined to emerge from the chaotic conditions that prevail today... What has not been formulated in the Aqdas, in addition to matters of detail and of secondary importance arising out of the application of the laws already formulated by Bahá'u'lláh, will have to be enacted by the Universal House of Justice. This body can supplement but never invalidate or modify in the least degree what has already been formulated by Bahá'u'lláh. Nor has the Guardian any right whatsoever to lessen the binding effect much less to abrogate the provisions of so fundamental and sacred a Book."

Kitáb-i-Aqdas - Introduction

 

[Vinayaka]

When it comes to violence, other than random acts, guerilla warfare, or terrorism, it is often perpetrated by a majority over a minority. In the history of genocide, that's often been the case. The Baha'i have always been a small minority, with little political power, or even the means to form an army. Any groups in similar situations, have been non-violent more out of necessity for survival than anything. But as the saying goes, power corrupts, so it remains to be seen what would happen if such a group were to get into power. I see no other means other than political, so there would have to be some really big changes for this planet to ever find out our future if Baha'i came to power.

 

[arthra]

But it's 'Double-Think' if applied to a future World where a Bahai World government might exist over all because of its % of Bahais in the World's population. Then a World military force (Bahai), instructed by a World government (Bahai) would absolutely undertake to deliver force where necessary to Worldwide bullies and aggressive enemy forces!

It may be you are unfamiliar with how we see a "World Government"... It's not a "Baha'i" world government, nor is it a "Baha'i" military force.

"And His plan is this: that the national assemblies of each country and nation -- that is to say parliaments -- should elect two or three persons who are the choicest men of that nation, and are well informed concerning international laws and the relations between governments and aware of the essential needs of the world of humanity in this day. The number of these representatives should be in proportion to the number of inhabitants of that country. The election of these souls who are chosen by the national assembly, that is, the parliament, must be confirmed by the upper house, the congress and the cabinet and also by the president or monarch so these persons may be the elected ones of all the nation and the government. From among these people the members of the Supreme Tribunal will be elected, and all mankind will thus have a share therein, for every one of these delegates is fully representative of his nation. When the Supreme Tribunal gives a ruling on any international question, either unanimously or by majority rule, there will no longer be any pretext for the plaintiff or ground of objection for the defendant. In case any of the governments or nations, in the execution of the irrefutable decision of the Supreme Tribunal, be negligent or dilatory, the rest of the nations will rise up against it, because all the governments and nations of the world are the supporters of this Supreme Tribunal."

(Provisional Translations, Tablet to the Hague)

Regarding "military":

"True civilization will unfurl its banner in the midmost heart of the world whenever a certain number of its distinguished and high-minded sovereigns -- the shining exemplars of devotion and determination -- shall, for the good and happiness of all mankind, arise, with firm resolve and clear vision, to establish the Cause of Universal Peace. They must make the Cause of Peace the object of general consultation, and seek by every means in their power to establish a Union of the nations of the world. They must conclude a binding treaty and establish a covenant, the provisions of which shall be sound, inviolable and definite. They must proclaim it to all the world and obtain for it the sanction of all the human race. This supreme and noble undertaking -- the real source of the peace and well-being of all the world -- should be regarded as sacred by all that dwell on earth. All the forces of humanity must be mobilized to ensure the stability and permanence of this Most Great Covenant. In this all-embracing Pact the limits and frontiers of each and every nation should be clearly fixed, the principles underlying the relations of governments towards one another definitely laid down, and all international agreements and obligations ascertained. In like manner, the size of the armaments of every government should be strictly limited, for if the preparations for war and the military forces of any nation should be allowed to increase, they will arouse the suspicion of others. The fundamental principle underlying this solemn Pact should be so fixed that if any government later violate any one of its provisions, all the governments on earth should arise to reduce it to utter submission, nay the human race as a whole should resolve, with every power at its disposal, to destroy that government. Should this greatest of all remedies be applied to the sick body of the world, it will assuredly recover from its ills and will remain eternally safe and secure."

~ Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 37

 

[arthra]

I see no other means other than political, so there would have to be some really big changes for this planet to ever find out our future if Baha'i came to power.

You understand that as Baha'is we cannot be partisan or be involved in partisan political causes?

1451. Bahá'ís Can neither Campaign for Office nor Undertake Partisan Political Activities -- They May Hold Appointive Posts which are not Political

"In the case of Mr. ..., it is important that you ascertain precisely what his membership on a village council entitles, and how he achieved such membership, i.e., by election or appointment. Your Assembly should understand that Bahá'ís do not engage in political activities nor belong to political parties, but may freely undertake non-political administrative work with governments may hold appointive posts which are not political in character, or may serve on local councils if they do not campaign for office and are not required to undertake partisan political activities."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of the Leeward Islands, February 15, 1982) 445

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 444)

Letter on behalf of the Universal House of Justice, dated May 25, 1992
Bahá'í Involvement with Campaigns
"In regard to the main question which you have posed, the requirement of Bahá'ís refraining from political involvement should not be construed merely as a comment on one's integrity; rather, it is a matter of the general state of society and confusion in the realm of politics. To have Bahá'ís involved in the regular machinery of campaign politics would be to undermine the Faith's essential position of non-partisanship. Therefore, the House of Justice feels that a Bahá'í should neither campaign on his own behalf nor do anything to promote his candidacy. Partisan politics, it should be borne in mind, includes not only party affiliation but also campaigning, whether in the context of a political party or not, by setting oneself up against another in a political contest. There is a clear distinction"

 

[Vinayaka]

You understand that as Baha'is we cannot be partisan or involved in partisan political causes?

Sure, yet your ability to do that depends on others being political. Somebody has to step up to the plate and run a country, a city, a state. If everyone took the Baha'i stance, chaos would surely ensue.

 

[paarsurrey]

Once again the Kitab-I-Aqdas ("Most Holy Book") deals more with laws and ordinances for Baha'is. You can read it online at:

Kitáb-i-Aqdas

"The laws revealed by Bahá'u'lláh in the Aqdas are, whenever practicable and not in direct conflict with the Civil Law of the land, absolutely binding on every believer or Bahá'í institution whether in the East or in the West. Certain ... laws should be regarded by all believers as universally and vitally applicable at the present time. Others have been formulated in anticipation of a state of society destined to emerge from the chaotic conditions that prevail today... What has not been formulated in the Aqdas, in addition to matters of detail and of secondary importance arising out of the application of the laws already formulated by Bahá'u'lláh, will have to be enacted by the Universal House of Justice. This body can supplement but never invalidate or modify in the least degree what has already been formulated by Bahá'u'lláh. Nor has the Guardian any right whatsoever to lessen the binding effect much less to abrogate the provisions of so fundamental and sacred a Book."

Kitáb-i-Aqdas - Introduction

Was the Kitáb-i-Aqdas - Introduction written by Bahaullah?
If Kitáb-i-Aqdas is the "Most Holy Book", then it has to be the core book. I am interested in the concepts of Bahaullah not of his followers. He should give his claims with clarity himself and the reasons also, why depend on others?

Regards

 

[arthra]

Sure, yet your ability to do that depends on others being political. Somebody has to step up to the plate and run a country, a city, a state. If everyone took the Baha'i stance, chaos would surely ensue.

Read the quote above:

"True civilization will unfurl its banner in the midmost heart of the world whenever a certain number of its distinguished and high-minded sovereigns -- the shining exemplars of devotion and determination -- shall, for the good and happiness of all mankind, arise, with firm resolve and clear vision, to establish the Cause of Universal Peace."

and

"And His plan is this: that the national assemblies of each country and nation -- that is to say parliaments -- should elect two or three persons who are the choicest men of that nation, and are well informed concerning international laws and the relations between governments and aware of the essential needs of the world of humanity in this day.

Baha'u'llah also addressed the Kings and Ruler of His day and called upon them to assemble and establish peace:

"Compose your differences and reduce your armaments, that the burden of your expenditures may be lightened, and that your minds and hearts may be tranquillized. Heal the dissensions that divide you, and ye will no longer be in need of any armaments except what the protection of your cities and territories demandeth. Fear ye God, and take heed not to outstrip the bounds of moderation and be numbered among the extravagant."

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

 

[danieldemol]

Was the Kitáb-i-Aqdas - Introduction written by Bahaullah?
If Kitáb-i-Aqdas is the "Most Holy Book", then it has to be the core book. I am interested in the concepts of Bahaullah not of his followers. He should give his claims with clarity himself and the reasons also, why depend on others?

Regards

Well in that case there is obviously no need for Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to explain Islam, since we already have the Quran, what need have we of Muhammad’s followers, Muhammad should have just explained it in the Quran clearly according to your logic

 

[oldbadger]

It may be you are unfamiliar with how we see a "World Government"... It's not a "Baha'i" world government, nor is it a "Baha'i" military force.

"And His plan is this: that the national assemblies of each country and nation -- that is to say parliaments --

I want to stop you right there, arthra. In a Bahai World those 'assemblies' would be National Houses of Justice.

Regarding "military":

"True civilization will unfurl its banner in the midmost heart of the world whenever a certain number of its distinguished and high-minded sovereigns -- the shining exemplars of devotion and determination -- shall, for the good and happiness of all mankind, arise, with firm resolve and clear vision, to establish the Cause of Universal Peace. .............................

...and again......... arthra, are you telling us here that in a Bahai World with Bahai majority your Universal and National Houses of justice would set up SOVEREIGNS?

Well, would they, arthra?
The only way that I can 'see' what Bahai truly 'is', is by extending it to it's fruition, a Bahai World, and thus giving me a chance to perceive it's true nature.

This process tears away the veils that might hide that nature within the mists of lengthy and colourful rhetoric.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"paarsurrey:
I have two questions: (1) What is manifestation of G-d, while replying please quote from
"The Kitáb-i-Aqdas – The Most Holy Book" of Bahaullah?
My reply:The Kitab-i-Aqdas mostly deals with laws and ordinances and some abrogation of laws of previous dispensations such as "Holy War". But there is a note in the Kitab-i-Aqdas that refers to the Manifestation of God" Unquote.

I get from Bahai.org:
"The Kitáb-i-Aqdas – The Most Holy Book".
It is described as "the most Holy Book".

Did Bahaullah claim that Kitab-i-Aqdas is "the most holy book"? If yes, then it is the core book of Bahaullah/Bahaism. I intend to read it again and compare it with Quran for my own benefit.
My liking is for the core books of a religion. For that matter, I will need
the original authoritative text of it in the original language it was written by Bahaullah whether in Farsi or in Arabic.

Regards

Baha'i Reference Library

Baha'i Reference Library

Those are the links to Persian and Arabic texts.

Regards Tony

 

[ajay0]

Unnecessarily is the key and I would agree in part with you, but you advocate an extreme cultural view of diet which is unnatural to humanity and our evolution.

Many Hindus, Buddhists, Jains are strict vegetarians and have survived for milleniums. So I wouldn't say it is an extreme cultural view of diet and unnatual.

Vegetarian diet actually have been considered healthier as incidence of heart and cardiovascular diseases , cancer are comparatively lower for vegetarians as opposed to nonvegetarians.

Research has also shown that vegetarianism is associated with lower incidence of cancer, cardiovascular diseases and better immune system.

http://www.pcrm.org/health/health-topics/foods-for-cancer-prevention

Vegetarianism can reduce risk of heart disease by up to a third | University of Oxford

And it is also great for the environment, and helps reduce global warming.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-vegetarianism-dangerous-global-warming#img-1

How going vegetarian will help save the world

Sri Sri Ravi Shankar: We should stop polluting our planet. Say no to plastic, Use as little plastic as possible. Recycle..Use recycled things. Use chemical free shampoos and soaps as far as possible. Go organic, I would recommend everyone to become vegetarian. You know, if we pay attention on the consumption that takes place to produce one non-vegetarian meal, feeding the animal etc.., it is equivalent to 400 vegetarian meals. So, I recommend everyone to turn vegetarian. Environmentalists say that if even 10 percent of the population turns vegetarian, we will not have the problem of this green house effect.

So, even from a secular perspective, you can see that vegetarianism can contribute a lot.


Imho, vegetarianism also cultivates a culture of non-violence and sensitivity, which are potent qualities or virtues in itself and necessary for a healthy human society.

 

[paarsurrey]

Baha'i Reference Library

Baha'i Reference Library

Those are the links to Persian and Arabic texts.

Regards Tony

Thanks for the links.
Regards

 

[shunyadragon]

A slave is slave!
No freedom. Domination. Enforcement. Mistreatment.

You're talking about something else when you mention service.

True!

 

[CG Didymus]

Sure, yet your ability to do that depends on others being political. Somebody has to step up to the plate and run a country, a city, a state. If everyone took the Baha'i stance, chaos would surely ensue.

If, by chance, the Baha'is become the majority in a country, they wouldn't have a Baha'i leader in the government? Because they couldn't let a Baha'i run for a political office? Yet, they'd have their own religious governing body, the Spiritual Assemblies, dealing with issues within the Baha'i Faith?