Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
children learn behaviors from their parents. The children of Adam would have seen how he came to view and treat his wife and they would have done likewise to their wives.
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Adam and Eve Equal Partners
- Thread starter Flat Earth Kyle
- Start date
children learn behaviors from their parents. The children of Adam would have seen how he came to view and treat his wife and they would have done likewise to their wives.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
No, I meant how can they use that verse to claim a God given right to lord it over women - when the verse doesn't say that.
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
Oh really? So you believe Cain being a murderer was Adam and Eve's fault?
Who do you think taught Cain and Able to offer up sacrifices to God in the first place? Do you believe this was taught by their parents?
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
I think you are missing what I was saying.
Woman was not made subject to man. Man was not given dominion over woman. Rule Over is a mistake, in Hebrew it says Rule With.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
there are many cultures who lord it over women without ever having read the bible...so they are not doing it because they 'think' the bible might be saying that.
They do it because they are imperfect. And imperfection leads to incorrect views and behaviors. Women are just as imperfect and it leads them to wrong views and behaviors too. This is what God was warning Eve about in that verse....he was telling her how, as a consequence of imperfection, things will change.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
just out of interest, do you have the hebrew text for this verse which says 'rule with' ?
It certainly seems very strange that God would tell them that now they will rule together while the entire history since that time shows the very opposite. Men have ruled over women. So either God made 'another' mistake when he said the two will now rule together, or your view is completely wrong.
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Hebrew Text for Gen 3:16 here
Interesting. Compare these two scriptures referring to desire and ruling over (mashal)
Gen 3:16
Unto the woman 802 he said 559 , I will greatly 7235 multiply 7235 thy sorrow 6093 and thy conception 2032; in sorrow 6089 thou shalt bring forth 3205 children 1121; and thy desire 8669 [shall be] to thy husband 376, and he shall rule4910 over thee.
(God speaking to Cain before he murdered Abel)
Gen 4:7
If 518 thou doest well 3190 , shalt thou not be accepted 7613? and if thou doest not well 3190 , sin 2403 lieth 7257 at the door 6607. And unto thee [shall be] his desire 8669, and thou shalt rule4910 over him.
Unto the woman 802 he said 559 , I will greatly 7235 multiply 7235 thy sorrow 6093 and thy conception 2032; in sorrow 6089 thou shalt bring forth 3205 children 1121; and thy desire 8669 [shall be] to thy husband 376, and he shall rule4910 over thee.
(God speaking to Cain before he murdered Abel)
Gen 4:7
If 518 thou doest well 3190 , shalt thou not be accepted 7613? and if thou doest not well 3190 , sin 2403 lieth 7257 at the door 6607. And unto thee [shall be] his desire 8669, and thou shalt rule4910 over him.
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
1) Awesome website!
2) Wow, I never caught that connection between the 2 verses before, great observation!
Interesting wording here, Why would Able desire Cain if Cain did not well?
Also, it was said if Cain did not well, Cain would rule over Able (the righteous one.)
Cain bad, Able Good
Adam partook of the fruit last, Eve first, and the common belief is that Eve sinned more than Adam did and so she was punished more than Adam was punished. The common belief would then be Adam bad, Eve more bad.
Okay, now lets look at patterns.
The common belief is that Adam (who was bad) would rule over Eve (who was more bad)
There is huge contrast with that and
Cain (who was bad) would dominate over Able (who was good)
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
I translate Gen 4:7 as
Gen 4:7 If you are not diligent in character, and do not do right, it is an opening for sinfulness that waits nearby, desiring you to possess.
*
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Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
You believe God made a mistake?
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
The other interesting part to notice is the website you share does not show any Hebrew writing for the words, "over thee" and, "Over him"
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
1) I think you mean 4:7
and 2) Did you mean to completely chop off "and you shall rule over him"?
Compare James 1:13-15
13 No one undergoing a trial should say, I am being tempted by God. For God is not tempted by evil,[e] and He Himself doesnt tempt anyone. 14 But each person is tempted when he is drawn away and enticed by his own evil desires. 15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death.
I must admit that I am viewing this through a Buddhist lens. Through this lens, this is not an issue of gender. It is a description of Dependent origination which leads to suffering and death.
"And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
-sutta-
-sutta-
We humans have been blaming each other instead of getting control of ourselves for a long time now. By projecting this inner problem onto others, we cause harm, but we can also learn the message contained in this projection if we pay attention to it and dispel our ignorance regarding it. Mankind must learn to rule over our own desires that give birth to sorrows, sin, suffering, and death. It doesn't have anything to do with men ruling over women. It has all to do with ruling over ones own self.
My apologies if this constitutes a derail. :/
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Yaddo, God is speaking to Cain here. He is saying that sin is crouching at Cains door...sin is crouching at Cains door because Cain is showing hatred for his brother.
Can i say that one more time... "Sin is crouching at Cains door"
And if cain doesnt do something about his attitude, Cain will rule over it. He will rule over sin! Do you see the implication of 'ruling over' in the passage? its not a good implication... its very negative!
where do you get this one from? The bible doesnt say Eve was more bad....it actually says Eve was deceived, but the man was not deceived. So if Eve did something because she was being deceived, she is less guilty then Adam who did the crime with full knowledge.
And what did Cains 'dominating over Able' result in? Anything good???
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
really? Are you really asking if i think God made a mistake??? Do you even follow along with these discussions???? :sarcastic
I think your view is mistaken.
Actually, it does. Compare the Hebrew text to what it says in Gesenius' Lexicon on this page. The ending to the word mashal in the text as 920 in Gesenius' Lexicon indicates "that which is ruled over" is in that text. (You will have to flip back to this page to view the Hebrew text.)
Actually, it is referring to Cain's ownsin and desire wanting to gain control over Cain's own mind. (Sorry for not putting more context up)
Look at it more as Eve being ignorant, which gave birth to her desire and craving. (I think there is a verse that says Eve was ignorant and deceived in one of Paul's letters.)
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
LOL, yep, it is late, I put the correct verse number on the verse, and for some reason put 9 above. LOL.
I absolutely meant to leave that section out because it is incorrectly translated. The sin is waiting in the opening (doorway) to possess him, not him to rule the sin. Translate it.
I like how the Gospel of Thomas expresses this concept:
7. Jesus said, "Lucky is the lion that the human will eat, so that the lion becomes human. And foul is the human that the lion will eat, and the lion still will become human."
If Adam is symbolic of the masculine (logical, reasoning mind) and Eve is the feminine (emotional mind), than we may say "At one point in time, the masculine and feminine both ruled equally in the mind, but after the fall (mind wants to serve itself), the masculine ruled over the feminine. thus, the logical mind determines the emotional state of a human." And if the logical mind were not in harmony with the divine, than the emotional state of a person would be negative, and all ideas born from that way of thinking would be negative. The feminine births the child (new idea in mind, result of thoughts) through suffering, because the masculine is not in harmony with the divine anymore. It makes sense to me anyway.