Adam and his wife died physically after eating the Forbidden Fruit. Genesis 2:17 is Literal.

[wellwisher]

@F1fan

Nothing you have stated addresses Genesis 2:17.

You are derailing. I consider that to be rude.

There were two trees in the Garden of Eden, which were the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The death implied by eating of the tree of knowledge, was connected to the loss of the tree of life. Adam and Eve could have one, or the other, but not both.

Genesis 3;22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

The tree of life imparts immortality, while the tree of knowledge is more temporary knowledge. Knowledge of good and evil does not last, but is constantly changing, generation to generation. The tree of Life is connected to our natural human instinct, common to all humans, which has not changed in thousands of years. It is repressed; on the other side being guarded, but it is not erased, since it is part of natural human DNA, and lives on in each new generation. The tree of knowledge is more for the temporal nature of the ego; generational knowledge. The tree of life is connected to the inner self.

If Adam and Eve, had then also ate of the tree of life, and could live forever, humans would be stuck in one generation of knowledge of good and evil that never changes, forever. It would not be a creative and imaginative place, but one that would be very dogmatic and robotic. It was better that each generation pass, so new and fresh ideas can appear.

 

[Left Coast]

I'd like to look at this a little more perhaps with you and Yokefellow. Adam and Eve sinned on the 7th day. But that goes further and we can perhaps look at it later...

The text doesn't say Adam and Eve sinned on the 7th day. It's actually two different narratives that have been combined there, so it's tough to try to overlay them.

But sure, we can keep chatting if you have more questions.

 

[YoursTrue]

It is impossible to make up for translation. It is not the same as the original and cannot convey the same meanings, just as Wordsworth cannot be translated to Russian. Translation necessarily mars the communication. Word for word translation fails, just as dynamic translation fails. They both are imprecise. Looking things up in concordances and in lexicons also cannot fix this problem. Its never going to be the same in a different language.

Not only that but to make things from the inner parts of the earth doesn't seem confusing to me because it is inexplicable and I accept it as a mystery but true. 1 Timothy 3:16 -
... Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

 

[YoursTrue]

The text doesn't say Adam and Eve sinned on the 7th day. It's actually two different narratives that have been combined there, so it's tough to try to overlay them.

But sure, we can keep chatting if you have more questions.

It doesn't say they sinned on the 6th day, does it? You think God took a day off?

 

[Left Coast]

It doesn't say they sinned on the 6th day, does it? You think God took a day off?

Why couldn't they have sinned after the 7th day? Again, you're conflating two different creation narratives anyway.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It is impossible to make up for translation. It is not the same as the original and cannot convey the same meanings, just as Wordsworth cannot be translated to Russian. Translation necessarily mars the communication. Word for word translation fails, just as dynamic translation fails. They both are imprecise. Looking things up in concordances and in lexicons also cannot fix this problem. Its never going to be the same in a different language.

Douglas Hofstadter , in his cultivated, amusing and instructive book, Le Ton Beau de Marot (832 pages!), makes the case beautifully with around 60 translations of a very simple poem by Marot to the 8 year-old daughter of a friend, to cheer her up in her illness.The book is his effort to illustrate and discuss the (im-)possibilities of translation from one language (mental frame, context, moment in time) to another.

A une Damoyselle malade

Ma mignonne,
Je vous donne
Le bon jour;
Le séjour
C’est prison.
Guérison
Recouvrez,
Puis ouvrez
Votre porte
Et qu’on sorte
Vitement,
Car Clément
Le vous mande.
Va, friande
De ta bouche,
Qui se couche
En danger
Pour manger
Confitures;
Si tu dures
Trop malade,
Couleur fade
Tu prendras,
Et perdras
L’embonpoint.
Dieu te doint
Santé bonne,
Ma mignonne.

 

[Shaul]

Your interpretation is dubious and highly problematic. It also shows a misunderstanding of the Hebrew. In chapter 2 is uses "מוֹת תָּמוּת". This is a present imperfect case. It could be translated as "die in dying" or "will (certainly) (to be) dying" (a verb, a process). In other words a starting of the process of dying. Your interpretation also is at variance with chapter 5. In Genesis 5:3-5 it reads; "And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth. And the days of Adam after he begot Seth were eight hundred years; and he begot sons and daughters. And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died." In verse 5 it uses "וַיָּמֹת". This indicates a past perfect case. A completed action of "to die", that is "did die" or "died". It doesn't allow for a first death and "resurrection" immediately after the eating of the forbidden fruit. HTH

 

[YoursTrue]

Why couldn't they have sinned after the 7th day? Again, you're conflating two different creation narratives anyway.

No I am not. I am looking at it logically. You refuse to see that each day was more than 24 hours including the 7th day which had no end attached to it. And maybe you think God took a day off once a week? Or was it only that week?

 

[YoursTrue]

Why couldn't they have sinned after the 7th day? Again, you're conflating two different creation narratives anyway.

Because each day of creation is more than 24 hours long and the 6th day closed with no problems attached to it.

 

[YoursTrue]

Douglas Hofstadter , in his cultivated, amusing and instructive book, Le Ton Beau de Marot (832 pages!), makes the case beautifully with around 60 translations of a very simple poem by Marot to the 8 year-old daughter of a friend, to cheer her up in her illness.The book is his effort to illustrate and discuss the (im-)possibilities of translation from one language (mental frame, context, moment in time) to another.

A une Damoyselle malade

Ma mignonne,
Je vous donne
Le bon jour;
Le séjour
C’est prison.
Guérison
Recouvrez,
Puis ouvrez
Votre porte
Et qu’on sorte
Vitement,
Car Clément
Le vous mande.
Va, friande
De ta bouche,
Qui se couche
En danger
Pour manger
Confitures;
Si tu dures
Trop malade,
Couleur fade
Tu prendras,
Et perdras
L’embonpoint.
Dieu te doint
Santé bonne,
Ma mignonne.

Obviously there are some reasonable ways to interpret but yes, some points are left out because of language and cultural gap.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Adam and his wife died *physically* after partaking of the Forbidden Fruit. Moreover, it was on that very day...

Genesis 2:17
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

• Day means Day, as in twenty-four hours or less.
• Surely Die means Surely Die, as in physical death.

As far as I know, I am the only person on the planet that believes the above verse.

Both Christians and Non-Christians alike will take away and add words to the verse to make it state something it does not.

Some examples include...

• Spiritual Death: Adam and his wife 'died Spiritually'.
• Begin to Age: The 'aging process' for Adam and his wife 'began ticking'.
• Day is a Thousand Years: Adam and his wife 'died within a thousand-year timeframe'.

Note that taking away and adding to the Word of God is of course a very big no-no, yet everyone does it with Genesis 2:17.

There is no need however, to alter the verse. Genesis 2:17 agrees with the entire Bible when taken literally.

In fact, it is the *only* way in which it does!

And you are simply left with the little problem of how, after the died, they were then fashioned aprons of leaves, evicted from the garden and reared children, and died after having lived 930 years (Genesis 5:5). If you adopt your analysis of one little bit of Genesis, you pretty much invalidate all the rest of it. Seems slightly problematic to me, but I can only use my logical brain on these things, not whatever it is you are using.

 

[Left Coast]

No I am not. I am looking at it logically. You refuse to see that each day was more than 24 hours including the 7th day which had no end attached to it.

The text doesn't say that though.

And maybe you think God took a day off once a week? Or was it only that week?

I have no idea - the text doesn't say. All I said was that creation in Genesis 1 took 6 days. On the 7th day it says God rested.

Aside from which, again, the Genesis 2 story of Adam and Eve's fall is from a different narrative than Genesis 1 with the 7 days. You're comparing two different things.

 

[YoursTrue]

The text doesn't say that though.



I have no idea - the text doesn't say. All I said was that creation in Genesis 1 took 6 days. On the 7th day it says God rested.

Aside from which, again, the Genesis 2 story of Adam and Eve's fall is from a different narrative than Genesis 1 with the 7 days. You're comparing two different things.

Perhaps we can look at the 6th day description closer.
NIV: (Genesis 1) --
"Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
28God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

(That happened on the sixth day, right?)

29Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

31God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day."

So verse 31 says that God saw all that he had made and it was very good. Now please tell me what it says after that in that verse please?

 

[Left Coast]

Perhaps we can look at the 6th day description closer.
NIV: (Genesis 1) --
"Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
28God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

(That happened on the sixth day, right?)

29Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

31God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day."

So verse 31 says that God saw all that he had made and it was very good. Now please tell me what it says after that in that verse please?

That's the end of verse 31 (and the chapter). Are you talking about 2:1?

"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them."

Did God finish creating on the 6th day, or not? What does the verse say?

 

[YoursTrue]

That's the end of verse 31 (and the chapter). Are you talking about 2:1?

"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them."

Did God finish creating on the 6th day, or not? What does the verse say?

I think I was quoting from Genesis 1. Let's look again -- Genesis 1:29-31:
"Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
31God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day."
So verse 31 says that everything (all) he had made was very good, and it was the sixth day.
Right?

 

[Left Coast]

I think I was quoting from Genesis 1. Let's look again -- Genesis 1:29-31:
"Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
31God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day."
So verse 31 says that everything (all) he had made was very good, and it was the sixth day.
Right?

Look: if you have a point, just make it. If I disagree with you and it's relevant, I'll let you know.

 

[YoursTrue]

Look: if you have a point, just make it. If I disagree with you and it's relevant, I'll let you know.

The Bible makes my point. Everything was finished on the sixth day. And it was very good. On the sixth day.

 

[Left Coast]

The Bible makes my point. Everything was finished on the sixth day. And it was very good. On the sixth day.

Okay great, so we're agreed that I was correct that the text says God created everything in six days.

It doesn't say Adam and Eve sinned on the 7th day, though. Because the part about them sinning is from a different narrative that has nothing to do with the seven days in chapter 1. Chapter 2 actually says it was all created in one day, which is a clue for you that you're looking at two different myths that were put back to back.

Incidentally - it really doesn't matter. Let's say the text did say what you think. Okay. Now what? Don't we have bigger fish to fry?

 

[YoursTrue]

Okay great, so we're agreed that I was correct that the text says God created everything in six days.

It doesn't say Adam and Eve sinned on the 7th day, though. Because the part about them sinning is from a different narrative that has nothing to do with the seven days in chapter 1. Chapter 2 actually says it was all created in one day, which is a clue for you that you're looking at two different myths that were put back to back.

Actually it should be a clue to you that a day in the creation account does not mean a 24 hour day as we know it. Chapter 2 is a recap or summary of the creation. Since you seem set on figuring they might have sinned after the 7th day .. and do not want to consider that each day of creation is not a 24 hour period and the seventh day was not said to have ended while the other six days had a beginning and an end I guess we can leave the conversation. I enjoyed going over the biblical information with you even though it seems you're not willing to accept that the first 6 days of creation had a beginning and an end but the 7th does not have an end.

 

[YoursTrue]

Okay great, so we're agreed that I was correct that the text says God created everything in six days.

It doesn't say Adam and Eve sinned on the 7th day, though. Because the part about them sinning is from a different narrative that has nothing to do with the seven days in chapter 1. Chapter 2 actually says it was all created in one day, which is a clue for you that you're looking at two different myths that were put back to back.

Incidentally - it really doesn't matter. Let's say the text did say what you think. Okay. Now what? Don't we have bigger fish to fry?

No. Oh and one more thing...on the 6th day it says everything was good, right?