Adam and his wife died physically after eating the Forbidden Fruit. Genesis 2:17 is Literal.

[Yokefellow]

Looks like folks have been busy posting. Good job everyone.

I am not sure what questions/concerns I still need to address, so I will just respond to this one by @Shaul ...

In chapter 2 is uses "מוֹת תָּמוּת". This is a present imperfect case. It could be translated as "die in dying" or "will (certainly) (to be) dying" (a verb, a process). In other words a starting of the process of dying.

People tend to interpret/translate that phrase from the bias that Adam and his Wife did not physically die. Therefore, they insist it must mean 'begin the process of dying' because of their Circular Logic.

Sadly, they never bother to double check to see if their translation contradicts the same phrase in other verses in the Bible. Moreover, they do not bother to check if their translation violates God's basic Laws and Ordinances.

First, let us double check the translation to see if it is indeed accurate. We will compare Genesis 2:17 to Jeremiah 26:8, which uses the exact same phrase...

Jeremiah 26:8
"Now it came to pass, when Jeremiah had made an end of speaking all that the LORD had commanded him to speak unto all the people, that the priests and the prophets and all the people took him, saying, Thou shalt surely die."

Here is what the Hebrew looks like for both Genesis 2:17 and Jeremiah 26:8...

Let us now plug the supposedly 'new and improved' translation into the verse to see if it makes sense...

Jeremiah 26:8
"Now it came to pass, when Jeremiah had made an end of speaking all that the LORD had commanded him to speak unto all the people, that the priests and the prophets and all the people took him, saying, Thou shalt surely die [begin the process of aging and eventually die]."

Nope. The verse makes no sense at all @Shaul . To make matters worse, the idea of 'beginning the aging process' implies that Jeremiah was immortal. Moreover, it implies that Jeremiah was a 'Created Being', complete with age and was never birthed. Obviously that is complete nonsense.

The problems keep piling up. Either you do not know how to translate Hebrew properly, or you are being dishonest.

BTW...

If you @Shaul or the other folks here are really searching for the most accurate translation, I would recommend reading this link...

DYING YOU SHALL DIE: THE MEANING OF GENESIS 2:17

Here is a quote...

"The pattern is clear. Outside of Genesis 2 and 3, the variant uses of the “dying you shall die” are overwhelmingly used in the context of announcing penalties for some kind of violation of a command or law."

We are looking at Juridical Penalty vs. Natural Consequences...

"Furthermore, I find no uses of this idiom describing a natural consequence scenario."

Here is the conclusion...

"Finally, to interpret Genesis 2:17 as announcing natural consequences instead of a juridical penalty ignores the overwhelming biblical evidence of how authors used the phrase in question throughout the Old Testament."

"As such, the natural consequences interpretation seems to establish human arbiters as higher authorities than the text to determine its truthfulness and relevance. Scripture no longer interprets Scripture."

The bottom line is that all of you here need to revise your false interpretations of Genesis 2:17 and begin teaching the Truth.

 

[Eli G]

The expression read as "you will certainly die" is literally in Hebrew "dying you will die."

Obviously they did not die the same day (of 24 hours), because the story indicates that they were expelled from the garden and then conceived children.

We must take into account that TIME is not conceived the same when the life expectancy is eternal.

 

[Bthoth]

Where to begin? Once a lie has been told about one verse, many more lies must be told to support it.

And now, thousands of years later, the masses are finally waking up to the monumental fraud that has been committed.

The 'Mother of All Lies' has its roots in Genesis. Christians are *told* to believe the lie that Satan told to the Woman...

Genesis 3:4
"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die"

Christians are told that the couple that ate the Forbidden Fruit did not 'surely die'... and they believe it.

They chose Satan's word over God's Word.

I've always wondered was was there to take down the dictation/minute of what god said?

 

[YoursTrue]

The expression read as "you will certainly die" is literally in Hebrew "dying you will die."

Obviously they did not die the same day (of 24 hours), because the story indicates that they were expelled from the garden and then conceived children.

We must take into account that TIME is not conceived the same when the life expectancy is eternal.

Thank you, you make some very good points here.

 

[Yokefellow]

Thank you, you make some very good points here.

Except the fact that he did not, as I proved in the post above his.

 

[Eli G]

In the way of expressing verbal actions, the Hebrew language does not have the same way to conjugate verbs at different times such as modern languages. The main aspect in which the actions are expressed in old Hebrew has to do with the fact of the action being completely carried out or being in process, that is, the perfect or imperfect aspect of the action.

That is because time was not originally considered in the same way, since during the childhood of humanity eternity was wrapped. Actually, the Bible shows that human life span was longer before the Deluge. So the actions were not seen as when they were/are done, but if the action had been done completely or not in the eternal course of time.

Although we lost eternity, many ancient languages (after Hebrew) retain that verbal characteristic, to focus on the perfect or imperfect aspect of the action and not in whether it is past, present or future.

If that was the way to consider/express an action, then we can easily understand what the Hebrew expression "dying you will die" really means, something like "you will be dying until you cease to exist".

Gen. 3:17 And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 It will grow thorns and thistles for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

 

[Yokefellow]

If that was the way to consider/express an action, then we can easily understand what the Hebrew expression "dying you will die" really means, something like "you will be dying until you cease to exist".

Nope. You should review Post #141.

"Finally, to interpret Genesis 2:17 as announcing natural consequences instead of a juridical penalty ignores the overwhelming biblical evidence of how authors used the phrase in question throughout the Old Testament."

"As such, the natural consequences interpretation seems to establish human arbiters as higher authorities than the text to determine its truthfulness and relevance. Scripture no longer interprets Scripture."

You are not letting Scripture interpret Scripture but rather you are using your own opinion as a higher authority.

Again, if we take your translation and test it, we find that it fails miserably...

Jeremiah 26:8
"Now it came to pass, when Jeremiah had made an end of speaking all that the LORD had commanded him to speak unto all the people, that the priests and the prophets and all the people took him, saying, Thou shalt surely die [begin the process of aging and eventually die]."

This is why it is not a good idea to cherry pick a verse and give it a unique translation separate from all of the other verses in the Bible. It causes errors and contradictions.

 

[Eli G]

The Scriptures are clear: Adam and Eve were expelled out of Eden. After that, they had children and lived until their death.

Gen. 5:3 Adam lived for 130 years and then became father to a son in his likeness, in his image, and he named him Seth. 4 After becoming father to Seth, Adam lived for 800 years. And he became father to sons and daughters. 5 So all the days of Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died.

Your story is fiction.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Scriptures are clear: Adam and Eve were expelled out of Eden. After that, they had children and lived until their death.

Gen. 5:3 Adam lived for 130 years and then became father to a son in his likeness, in his image, and he named him Seth. 4 After becoming father to Seth, Adam lived for 800 years. And he became father to sons and daughters. 5 So all the days of Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died.

Your story is fiction.

That is okay because the Adam and Eve story is fiction. Or are we playing fan fiction games here?

 

[Yokefellow]

The Scriptures are clear: Adam and Eve were expelled out of Eden. After that, they had children and lived until their death.

Gen. 5:3 Adam lived for 130 years and then became father to a son in his likeness, in his image, and he named him Seth. 4 After becoming father to Seth, Adam lived for 800 years. And he became father to sons and daughters. 5 So all the days of Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died.

Your story is fiction.

Already addressed.

You are looking at the Genealogy from the Second Adam and his wife Eve (the reincarnated Ishshah).

Nothing in your above post contradicts my OP.

 

[Eli G]

There is not any "second Adam" (but Jesus) and there is not any second Eve. That is your own fiction in total contradiction to the historical account in the Bible; an invention of your own imagination, and I won't lose another second on this.

Have a good day.

 

[YoursTrue]

The Scriptures are clear: Adam and Eve were expelled out of Eden. After that, they had children and lived until their death.

Gen. 5:3 Adam lived for 130 years and then became father to a son in his likeness, in his image, and he named him Seth. 4 After becoming father to Seth, Adam lived for 800 years. And he became father to sons and daughters. 5 So all the days of Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died.

Your story is fiction.

thanks for your reply, if a ruler says on this day you will surely die -- it definitely, absolutely does not have to mean the offender would die in total, be gone, the same day. So be it, and again, thanks for your response.

 

[YoursTrue]

Except the fact that he did not, as I proved in the post above his.

He did make some good points. There IS no "second Eve." Good point.

 

[Subduction Zone]

He did make some good points. There IS no "second Eve." Good point.

Or first.

 

[Yokefellow]

He did make some good points. There IS no "second Eve." Good point.

Oh, I see. Yes, no verse has the words 'Second Eve' in it.

There is Ishshah and there is Eve.

 

[YoursTrue]

Oh, I see. Yes, no verse has the words 'Second Eve' in it.

There is Ishshah and there is Eve.

So long, take care.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Oh, I see. Yes, no verse has the words 'Second Eve' in it.

There is Ishshah and there is Eve.

No, that is a title. Not a name in Hebrew. It simply means woman and usually implies wife. In the myth Eve was Adam's wife.

'ishshah Meaning - Hebrew Lexicon | Old Testament (NAS)

Discover the original meaning of 'ishshah in the Bible using the Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - New American Standard. Discover the audio pronunciation, word origin and usage in the Bible, plus scripture verse references of 'ishshah.

www.biblestudytools.com

 

[Eli G]

In Hebrew ish is male and ishshah is human female.

Adam called Eve an ishshah because she was taken out of him and has his own kind of flesh. The only difference between ish and ishshah is the termination -ah that in Hebrew is one of the terminations to convert some masculine nouns to feminine.

Gen. 2:23 “Then the man [ish] said: “This is at last bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. This one will be called Woman [ish·shahʹ], because from man [ish] this one was taken.”

 

[Betho_br]

Eve was created after Adam received God's instructions regarding the trees in the Garden of Eden. The exact way in which Adam conveyed these orders to Eve is not explicitly detailed in the Bible. Eve made a mistake by engaging in a theological discussion with the serpent about a commandment she hadn't directly heard from God. Furthermore, she mistakenly asserted that she couldn't eat from the tree in the middle of the garden when, in fact, that tree was the Tree of Life, and God hadn't forbidden its fruit. She also added that she couldn't even touch the tree, even though God had not mentioned this restriction to Adam.

After this dialogue, when Eve encountered the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, she may have erroneously believed that she was free to eat from it because she thought the forbidden tree was the one in the middle of the garden. This is why the Scriptures state that Eve was deceived; she had mentally switched the positions of the trees.

 

[Eli G]

Eve was created after Adam received God's instructions regarding the trees in the Garden of Eden. The exact way in which Adam conveyed these orders to Eve is not explicitly detailed in the Bible. Eve made a mistake by engaging in a theological discussion with the serpent about a commandment she hadn't directly heard from God. Furthermore, she mistakenly asserted that she couldn't eat from the tree in the middle of the garden when, in fact, that tree was the Tree of Life, and God hadn't forbidden its fruit. She also added that she couldn't even touch the tree, even though God had not mentioned this restriction to Adam.

After this dialogue, when Eve encountered the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, she may have erroneously believed that she was free to eat from it because she thought the forbidden tree was the one in the middle of the garden. This is why the Scriptures state that Eve was deceived; she had mentally switched the positions of the trees.

That does not follow from the biblical account. On the contrary, Eve knew from the beginning that THAT ONE and no other, was the tree whose fruit was forbidden even to touch. She was considering eating it for some time, until she ate it, and then she gave it to her husband to eat, and he willingly ate it.

Eve was deceived when Satan, like a ventriloquist, insisted that there was nothing wrong with eating it, and insinuated that God was lying, and forbidding them something that would benefit them.

Gen. 3:1 Now the serpent was the most cautious of all the wild animals of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it said to the woman:
“Did God really say that you must not eat from every tree of the garden?”
2 At this the woman said to the serpent:
“We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden. 3 But God has said about the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden: ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it; otherwise you will die.’”
4 At this the serpent said to the woman:
“You certainly will not die. 5 For God knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad.”
6 Consequently, the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something desirable to the eyes, yes, the tree was pleasing to look at. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it. Afterward, she also gave some to her husband when he was with her, and he began eating it.