after five years, i left islam. here's one huge contradiction in the qur`an

[Sabour]

No problem I will keep this in the back of my mind.
Something more important to me is the explanation of Sura 3:6.

Explanation: (He it is Who shapes you in the wombs as He wills.) meaning, He creates you in the wombs as He wills, whether male or female, handsome or otherwise, happy or miserable.

Can you be forwards and tell me what you understood from it and the point you want to make please ?

 

[uncung]

Ok when you figure that out you will know why I don't stick to Islam according to the theology I have received on that passage.

The god of the bible has filled in the gap for me.

Tell me how come the God of the Bible filled that gap to you.

 

[anonymous9887]

The Quraish tribe were well known as illiterate people (ummy people). They relied on their memorization.
The Quranic canon is the form of the Quran as recited and written in which it is religiously binding for the Muslim community. This canonical corpus is closed and fixed in the sense that nothing in the Quran can be changed or modified. The process of canonization ended under the third caliph, Uthman ibn Affan (r. 23/644–35/655), which was about twenty years after the death of Prophet Muhammad.[38]

By the time of Uthman's caliphate, there was a perceived need for clarification of Quran reading. The Caliphate had grown considerably, expanding into Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and Iran, bringing into Islam's fold many new converts from various cultures with varying degrees of isolation.[39] These converts spoke a variety of languages but were not well learned in Arabic, and so Uthman felt it was important to standardize the written text of the Quran into one specific Arabic dialect. Another reason for compiling the Quran was that many Muslims who had memorised the Quran in its entirety (huffaz) were dying, especially in battle.[citation needed]

(WIKIPEDIA)

Ok so if there was so many people testifying about the Qur'an where are their written document validating that people had memorized these perfectly?

 

[anonymous9887]

Explanation: (He it is Who shapes you in the wombs as He wills.) meaning, He creates you in the wombs as He wills, whether male or female, handsome or otherwise, happy or miserable.

Can you be forwards and tell me what you understood from it and the point you want to make please ?

What about cripples and people born with disabilities is he responsible as well?

 

[anonymous9887]

Tell me how come the God of the Bible filled that gap to you.

Very simple the bible explains these things that reflect a god of love with the answers it provides:
1. What was gods intention for man when he created him and the earth?
2. Why we die
3. Why evil and suffering exist
4. Why cripples and disasters occur and why all the chaos.
5. Why eternal suffering for those that don't make it. One thing is to cease to exist another is to put you in a place of torment forever. Not a god of love in my eyes.

 

[Sabour]

What about cripples and people born with disabilities is he responsible as well?

EVERYTHING works according to God's will. Deaths, diseases,guidance. Everything you can think of.


Anything He wants, He says be and it is.

Don't you think God has the ability to do whatever He wills ?

 

[anonymous9887]

EVERYTHING works according to God's will. Deaths, diseases,guidance. Everything you can think of.


Anything He wants, He says be and it is.

Don't you think God has the ability to do whatever He wills ?

Yes I do, but I have looked into this matter, and the bibles answer reflects a loving god.

Also take a look at Sura 10:44, don't these things seem to contradict. Is it not unjust to cripple a child who has not had a chance to do any wrong?

 

[uncung]

Ok so if there was so many people testifying about the Qur'an where are their written document validating that people had memorized these perfectly?

Uthman memorized Quran.

Uthman's reaction in 653 is recorded in the following:

"So Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Quran so that we may compile the Quranic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to Uthman. Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Quran, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Quran was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Quranic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Zayd bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Quran and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.'"[Quran 33:23][Bukhari Sahih al-Bukhari, 6:61:510]

 

[uncung]

Very simple the bible explains these things that reflect a god of love with the answers it provides:
1. What was gods intention for man when he created him and the earth?
2. Why we die
3. Why evil and suffering exist
4. Why cripples and disasters occur and why all the chaos.
5. Why eternal suffering for those that don't make it. One thing is to cease to exist another is to put you in a place of torment forever. Not a god of love in my eyes.

And what does your assertions above have to do with the sura 3:6?

 

[anonymous9887]

And what does your assertions above have to do with the sura 3:6?

Well does god create cripples and people with disabilities?

 

[anonymous9887]

Uthman memorized Quran.

Uthman's reaction in 653 is recorded in the following:

"So Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Quran so that we may compile the Quranic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to Uthman. Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Quran, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Quran was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Quranic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Zayd bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Quran and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.'"[Quran 33:23][Bukhari Sahih al-Bukhari, 6:61:510]

Ok. So who are you quoting from? What is the source that is providing this information?

 

[Sabour]

Yes I do, but I have looked into this matter, and the bibles answer reflects a loving god.

Also take a look at Sura 10:44, don't these things seem to contradict. Is it not unjust to cripple a child who has not had a chance to do any wrong?

The first thing we need to know is the purpose of life in Islam.

67:2

[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving -

Basically, it is well established through out the Quraan, that for granting paradise, one has to have the belief and do righteous deeds. Surely those people can't be treated as those who cause corruption.

38:28

Or should we treat those who believe and do righteous deeds like corrupters in the land? Or should We treat those who fear Allah like the wicked?


God has shown as the way and gave us guidance to grant paradise, by His Mercy for He is the All-Merciful.

5:15

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.

5:16

By which Allah guides those who pursue His pleasure to the ways of peace and brings them out from darknesses into the light, by His permission, and guides them to a straight path.


As for suffering, sometimes what we see as suffering is just a look on the outside,

How often do we see a person suffering in many aspects in life, yet they still smile? We see other people having everything they ever wanted in life .... and than they commit suicide, because they didn't find happiness.


Suffering is not the suffering that we label. Suffering is the soul's suffering. Suffering is when all these dark clouds surround the heart from every side. Suffering is when you have everything one would dream of in the world yet you can't find happiness.

Patience when there is suffering will be rewarded.
Patience through sickness will be rewarded.
God created a "world" of only happiness. It is paradise. Death is just a stage we pass through.

Our reward will be in paradise. Prophets were the most people who suffered in this life and they will be in the highest ranks in paradise.

In Quraan, patience is key to heaven and it is rewarded.

There are several reasons why bad things happen.

First thing we should know is that the way the world runs is that there is an cause-effect relation. So what we we would interpret in many times is a result of our or someone's actions. Other reasons would be;

1- Test for the believers.

29:2 [29:2] Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe," without being put to the test?

[29:3] We have tested those before them, for God must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

also:

[2:155] We will surely test you through some fear, hunger, and loss of money, lives, and crops. Give good news to the steadfast.


To pass the test, the believer must maintain his trust that God only can relieve his hardship. The believer will maintain his prayer and call onto God:

[27:62] Who is the One who rescues those who become desperate and call upon Him, relieves adversity, and makes you inheritors of the earth? Is it another god with God? Rarely do you take heed.


2- Hardship and adversity is also decreed by God as a purifying of our souls



3- Suffering through hardship and adversity is also a reminder for people who tend to take things for granted and forget all of God’s blessings.

[14:34] If you count God's blessings, you can never encompass them. Indeed, the human being is transgressing, unappreciative.
[41:51] When we bless the human being, he turns away, and drifts farther and farther away, and when he suffers any affliction, he implores loudly.

[10:23] But as soon as He saves them, they transgress on earth, and oppose the truth. O people, your transgression is only to the detriment of your own souls. You remain preoccupied with this worldly life, then to us is your ultimate return, then we inform you of everything you had done.


4- Better ranking in heaven because of patience

2:45 Nay, seek (Allah's) help with patient perseverance and prayer: It is indeed hard, except to those who bring a lowly spirit,-

2:155 And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient,

3:200 O you who believe! Endure and be more patient (than your enemy), and guard your territory by stationing army units permanently at the places from where the enemy can attack you, and fear Allah, so that you may be successful.


And if we really think about it and think who were people who suffered the most, we will see that it was the prophets, they are the ones who have the highest ranks in heaven.


Additionally, we must not forget the patience is one of the keys towards heaven.

2:45 And seek help through patience and prayer, and indeed, it is difficult except for the humbly submissive [to Allah ]
2:153 O you who have believed, seek help through patience and prayer. Indeed, Allah is with the patient.

 

[uncung]

Well does god create cripples and people with disabilities?

Yes He does, He creates them.

 

[uncung]

Ok. So who are you quoting from? What is the source that is providing this information?

From Hadist Bukhary, it is the source.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/061-sbt.php#006.061.510

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you."

and so on.

 

[Sabour]

Yes I do, but I have looked into this matter, and the bibles answer reflects a loving god.

Also take a look at Sura 10:44, don't these things seem to contradict. Is it not unjust to cripple a child who has not had a chance to do any wrong?

No it is not a contradiction.

As you know, we live our life today as a test, and we will have our judgement day. So now we are on a test, and the results will show later.

Think about it that way. If a just teacher gave two students two different exams, one is easy and the other is hard. What would he do to make up for the student who had a difficult exam? He will be more less strict in the correction of the exam.

Also, patience is one of the keys to heaven

Note that, 4:40

Indeed, Allah does not do injustice, [even] as much as an atom's weight; while if there is a good deed, He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward.

 

[firedragon]

Ok. But can you provide evidence other than modern day people, that people from the 6th century completely memorized the Qur'an. Is there any historical document or any persons writings that lived in that time that mentioned that, other than the Quran?

The thing is this. Islamic traditions teach of many companions who memorised the Quran, Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Ibn Masud, Abu Huraira, Abdullah bin Abbas, Abdullah bin Amr bin al-As, Aisha, Hafsa, and Umm Salama etc. But the document that quotes this was written earliest 180 years after the prophet. Thus, can never be quoted as historical proof.

Actually, most history books are of the same nature. The larger the gap, the more errors.

 

[firedragon]

So you expect someone to just believe that the people back then memorized the Qur'an perfectly, just because people say?

Not because people say, because people show. Theres a big difference.

Not a single book of any other theology can make this claim. None. Definitely not the bible (Please dont take offense of that statement).

 

[firedragon]

What evidence can you provide other than the Quran. Can you use another person's writing who lived in the same time, or a historical document?

Why would you look for other peoples writings when you have the source itself?

 

[firedragon]

Yes that is what observation points to, but proving that people memorized the Qur'an without secular documentation is an impossibility, to me at least.

Dont you understand that you cant claim something to be impossible when its done now in plain sight?

 

[firedragon]

There are many topics I sometimes hate to delve into after years of work. Discussions are sometimes bitter and difficult. Mainly because to discuss a topic like the Quran memorisation or Tahfidh al Quran because you have to follow it to know. Trying to prove the Qurans veracity through the memorisation concept is like trying to prove Gods existence through faith statements, its almost futile.

I am a Muslim and lived my whole life as a Muslim, but I have always questioned everything. Still, I will be bias subconsciously though we refuse to believe it. I have tried memorising other books in Arabic to no fruit. How is it that millions of people memorise the Quran and recite it like a breeze? No, I am not claiming divinity here. But the Quran is written in a way where when you recite a part of it there are memory bells that pave way for the next sentence, next verse etc. Its something I doubt can be found in any other work.

The real way of a Hafidh is to narrate it without looking at a printed Quran and teach students to memorise it. I have seen two people from two different nationalities recite it without a single blemish. Its simply amazing. BTW, I am no Hafidh. The tradition is such.

I understand that the two folios in the Birmingham university is just parts of three chapters of the Quran. But the significance is that not a single variant can be found between that and the current Quran if studied side by side. I posted such in an older post. One must note that its highly unlikely that a Quran manuscript will travel in the Arabian peninsula to be copied. It is more likely that people travel with their memory and narrate the Quran to someone else to be written down.

Nevertheless it is also likely that Uthman washed off Qurans, not actually burn them. Maybe when possible. According to Keith E. Small, the Sanaa manuscript is such because there is a lower and upper text.

It will take a whole book to do a proper exegesis thus I will stop now. And this is not my expertise.