after five years, i left islam. here's one huge contradiction in the qur`an

[The_Fisher_King]

There is no point looking for external confirmation of the Quranic stories because its completely irrelevant to the time, place and people of the time.

Salaam,

What is completely irrelevant to the time, place and people of the time?

Wassalaam

 

[The_Fisher_King]

That is not evidence of what others did more than 1000 years ago. That just proves that these muslims have memorized what others have compiled.

It does not prove that. It is equally possible that these Muslims have memorised it after hearing it from someone else, and those from someone else, and so on, in a long, long chain reaching back to the Prophet Muhammad (saws).

 

[The_Fisher_King]

If they truly memorized the Qur'an 100% accurately they would at least provide one complete perfect document, and you would think as mighty as that empire was they would be able to preserve it.

Why? Why are you placing such a great emphasis on written documents? These are just as open to corruption as an oral tradition.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Very simple the bible explains these things that reflect a god of love with the answers it provides:
1. What was gods intention for man when he created him and the earth?
2. Why we die
3. Why evil and suffering exist
4. Why cripples and disasters occur and why all the chaos.
5. Why eternal suffering for those that don't make it. One thing is to cease to exist another is to put you in a place of torment forever. Not a god of love in my eyes.

Who creates 'cripples', in your opinion?

 

[firedragon]

Salaam,

What is completely irrelevant to the time, place and people of the time?

Wassalaam

Quran

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Quran

Salaam,

'Completely irrelevant'? [my emphasis]

Wassalaam

 

[anonymous9887]

The first thing we need to know is the purpose of life in Islam.

67:2

[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving -

Basically, it is well established through out the Quraan, that for granting paradise, one has to have the belief and do righteous deeds. Surely those people can't be treated as those who cause corruption.

38:28

Or should we treat those who believe and do righteous deeds like corrupters in the land? Or should We treat those who fear Allah like the wicked?


God has shown as the way and gave us guidance to grant paradise, by His Mercy for He is the All-Merciful.

5:15

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.

5:16

By which Allah guides those who pursue His pleasure to the ways of peace and brings them out from darknesses into the light, by His permission, and guides them to a straight path.


As for suffering, sometimes what we see as suffering is just a look on the outside,

How often do we see a person suffering in many aspects in life, yet they still smile? We see other people having everything they ever wanted in life .... and than they commit suicide, because they didn't find happiness.


Suffering is not the suffering that we label. Suffering is the soul's suffering. Suffering is when all these dark clouds surround the heart from every side. Suffering is when you have everything one would dream of in the world yet you can't find happiness.

Patience when there is suffering will be rewarded.
Patience through sickness will be rewarded.
God created a "world" of only happiness. It is paradise. Death is just a stage we pass through.

Our reward will be in paradise. Prophets were the most people who suffered in this life and they will be in the highest ranks in paradise.

In Quraan, patience is key to heaven and it is rewarded.

There are several reasons why bad things happen.

First thing we should know is that the way the world runs is that there is an cause-effect relation. So what we we would interpret in many times is a result of our or someone's actions. Other reasons would be;

1- Test for the believers.

29:2 [29:2] Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe," without being put to the test?

[29:3] We have tested those before them, for God must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

also:

[2:155] We will surely test you through some fear, hunger, and loss of money, lives, and crops. Give good news to the steadfast.


To pass the test, the believer must maintain his trust that God only can relieve his hardship. The believer will maintain his prayer and call onto God:

[27:62] Who is the One who rescues those who become desperate and call upon Him, relieves adversity, and makes you inheritors of the earth? Is it another god with God? Rarely do you take heed.


2- Hardship and adversity is also decreed by God as a purifying of our souls



3- Suffering through hardship and adversity is also a reminder for people who tend to take things for granted and forget all of God’s blessings.

[14:34] If you count God's blessings, you can never encompass them. Indeed, the human being is transgressing, unappreciative.
[41:51] When we bless the human being, he turns away, and drifts farther and farther away, and when he suffers any affliction, he implores loudly.

[10:23] But as soon as He saves them, they transgress on earth, and oppose the truth. O people, your transgression is only to the detriment of your own souls. You remain preoccupied with this worldly life, then to us is your ultimate return, then we inform you of everything you had done.


4- Better ranking in heaven because of patience

2:45 Nay, seek (Allah's) help with patient perseverance and prayer: It is indeed hard, except to those who bring a lowly spirit,-

2:155 And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient,

3:200 O you who believe! Endure and be more patient (than your enemy), and guard your territory by stationing army units permanently at the places from where the enemy can attack you, and fear Allah, so that you may be successful.


And if we really think about it and think who were people who suffered the most, we will see that it was the prophets, they are the ones who have the highest ranks in heaven.


Additionally, we must not forget the patience is one of the keys towards heaven.

2:45 And seek help through patience and prayer, and indeed, it is difficult except for the humbly submissive [to Allah ]
2:153 O you who have believed, seek help through patience and prayer. Indeed, Allah is with the patient.

Everything you just explained is irrational to me. Just starting with this " god created this life to test us" is not acceptable to me. Create us to test us. No thank you.

 

[anonymous9887]

[QUOTE ="uncung, post: 4793515, member: 600 50"]From Hadist Bukhary, it is the source.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/061-sbt.php#006.061.510

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you."

and so on.[/QUOTE]
Hadith is not a reliable source because it written 200-300 years later

 

[firedragon]

Salaam,

'Completely irrelevant'? [my emphasis]

Wassalaam

Bible vs Quran. Analyse them. (Not Analise)

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Bible vs Quran. Analyse them. (Not Analise)

Salaam,

I don't see how that answers my question, which was about your claim that the Qur'aan is 'completely irrelevant to the time, place and people of the time'. I am asking you to explain what you mean by that (I'm not being anal here).

Wassalaam

 

[Augustus]

Earliest dates are bordering Zero %. You serious?

No idea what point you are making here??

I asked for the idiot who dated it, not the methodology. And I know who did it, why the information is not given, whats the big deal about the hush hush. And I did not praise RC for its wonderful accuracy.

If you know who did it then why bother asking? There is no hush hush, if you want to know more about it then you can read Qurans of the Umayyads by Francois Deroche (it's in the intro chapter). The context of the discussion is 'don't be too credulous about RC dating as it is often inaccurate' which is supported by several examples of incorrect RC dating such as Sanaa 1.

And if you didn't praise RC dating for its wonderful accuracy, then why do you keep repeating it as fact?

Can we agree it is often not very accurate when dating ME manuscripts then?

I have already given calculated reasoning including all considerations for the dating and how it could vary. It may very well be during Muhammeds time.

You just repeated the RC dating range as reported in the media. Absent this, what is your evidence?

As I've always acknowledged it could be, but you are basically arguing that it is almost certainly is from Muhammad's time based on flawed reasoning.

 

[firedragon]

If you know who did it then why bother asking? There is no hush hush, if you want to know more about it then you can read Qurans of the Umayyads by Francois Deroche (it's in the intro chapter). The context of the discussion is 'don't be too credulous about RC dating as it is often inaccurate' which is supported by several examples of incorrect RC dating such as Sanaa 1.

And if you didn't praise RC dating for its wonderful accuracy, then why do you keep repeating it as fact?

Can we agree it is often not very accurate when dating ME manuscripts then?

I am talking about Deroche and Ive read it mate.

As I've always acknowledged it could be, but you are basically arguing that it is almost certainly is from Muhammad's time based on flawed reasoning.

Could be. Probably not.
But, you are not going with full details and I have given you some that come from those who do dating.

TC

 

[bristol]

one, yesterday i discovered that in the qur`an, chapter 11 verse 1 states that the verses are perfected and explained in detail, but all of chapter 111 is clearly about muhammad wanting revenge on his uncle and her wife. the entire message of the qur`an would be benefited without that chapter. how are those perfected verses?

two, even if you believe it's supposed to be hard to understand (which makes no sense because that can cause huge amounts of misinterpretation and chaos), that is still not explanation in detail, therefore it also makes the qur`an imperfect and completely contradicts chapter 11 verse 1.

three, it's as if people thought muhammad's complaints about family were teachings and added it into the qur`an. also, these are things that people believed muhammad said sorted out by people other than muhammad. if this chapter is in there, that further destroys its credibility.

four (as asked on page 6), why are the famous mysterious letters (i.e. alif lam ra) added into the qur`an with no explanation for them? and if they weren't in the actual qur`an, then a huge part of the world has been misguided by this. this contradicts chapter 11 verse 1

there are so many verses in the qur`an that are extremely hard to understand. and if you say it wasn't talking about every verse, then that would make chapter 11 verse 1 contradict even itself.

i do still however follow God. just with no religion.

Kelvin a think your issues is Lack of Knowledge of Quraan.

Think about this for a moment.
Quraan Clearly states :-

"Do they not then consider the Quran carefully? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much contradiction”

[an-Nisa’ 4:82].

Enemies of Al Islam came in thousands try to challenge and Find some contradictions in the Quraan and they ALL FAIL miserably.
Thats why Islam became Number one FAST GROWING RELIGION in the western world and we are whiteness hundreds of Scientists and well educated people embraced Islam.

They other thing which makes me wonder, why did you choose to abandon Islam simply because you found a verse or 2 you didn't understand or/ thought there is Contradiction?
Did you embraced Islam because Of Non contradictions on it or because you had a firm beliefs that GOD IS ONE and Muhammad (may peace and blessing be upon him) is his Messenger ?

 

[firedragon]

Salaam,

I don't see how that answers my question, which was about your claim that the Qur'aan is 'completely irrelevant to the time, place and people of the time'. I am asking you to explain what you mean by that (I'm not being anal here).

Wassalaam

I was kidding.

Anyway, you should have read the whole post. The Quran is not a story teller like the bible thus Quranic characters needing external attestation is not something I go for.

We Muslims claim that the Quran is for eternity etc but whenever some question arises about some verses our answer is that it was for that time, in a particular situation.

I dont agree. The Quran basically is not relevant to that time, place or people.

Cheers.

 

[Augustus]

I am talking about Deroche and Ive read it mate.

So you agree that RC dating is often inaccurate regard ME manuscripts?

Could be. Probably not.
But, you are not going with full details and I have given you some that come from those who do dating.

What details have you given that demonstrate that we should accept the dating as very accurate?

 

[anonymous9887]

Not because people say, because people show. Theres a big difference.

Not a single book of any other theology can make this claim. None. Definitely not the bible (Please dont take offense of that statement).

The bible is by far the most studied book and the most distributed. So. The bible has more historical evidence that can confirm some things in the bible. The bible could build more of a legal case than any other sacred writings and philosophical writings. To deny the bible, we would have to throw out all those other writings as being true.

If people memorized the writing of plato, would that make it divine?

 

[anonymous9887]

Dont you understand that you cant claim something to be impossible when its done now in plain sight?

You cant prove by something you do today, to prove something was done in the past, by that logic we can definitely kick that problem around.

 

[anonymous9887]

Why would you look for other peoples writings when you have the source itself?

Because if Islam 2 as such a mighty nation, there has to be some secular documentation of their recitation. Something that impressive would have been at least mentioned, but it's not, only in your own document.

 

[anonymous9887]

No it is not a contradiction.

As you know, we live our life today as a test, and we will have our judgement day. So now we are on a test, and the results will show later.

Think about it that way. If a just teacher gave two students two different exams, one is easy and the other is hard. What would he do to make up for the student who had a difficult exam? He will be more less strict in the correction of the exam.

Also, patience is one of the keys to heaven

Note that, 4:40

Indeed, Allah does not do injustice, [even] as much as an atom's weight; while if there is a good deed, He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward.

That's the problem, that God originally created us with an intention to test us. All this suffering was predestined.

 

[Sabour]

Everything you just explained is irrational to me. Just starting with this " god created this life to test us" is not acceptable to me. Create us to test us. No thank you.

Why did God create us according to your belief ?