after five years, i left islam. here's one huge contradiction in the qur`an

[anonymous9887]

Thats not the example. The example is, if some claims to have killed you, but you are alive and well, the claim is false. Because you are there and can be verified physically.

Same with the Quran.

You have no secular resources of that time to back you up. Blind faith, no thank you.

 

[firedragon]

You have no secular resources of that time to back you up. Blind faith, no thank you.

Good for you mate.

 

[anonymous9887]

Good for you mate.

So do you accept the fact that you have no secular resources but only the own manuscripts themselves attest about themselves?

 

[anonymous9887]

Mental note for @Paul Chavez Never bring a butter knife to a gun fight.

@Paul Chavez @firedragon

This is your opinion.

Facts
Not a single of the oldest manuscripts is 100% complete. That is a fact.

The one he says is 99% complete comes years after the death of uthman 50 years approximately and varies from the original "fragments".
So how is firedragon making a point?

 

[firedragon]

First of all the manuscripts that you are naming are from after 700.

Yes. But you said that theres no complete Quran. Could you agree that claim is false?

We don't know who compiled the Topkapi, uthman died around 660 so who wrote it.

No one knows who wrote any of the early manuscripts. Most of it is scholarly assertions.

Now, how would you know Uthman died around 660?

Why is there variants no matter how small, from the Original and the Topkapi.

Original and Topkapi? What is the original?

Variants exist because variants exist. Reasons could be given, but they are more guesswork. I prefer to study them and establish a certain scholarly assessment.
But I dont see any point discussing them in detail.

And yet there is no secular evidence of your god who created crippled children. Sura 3:6

Lol. Secular evidence to a God. Now thats something new.
God created crippled children, thats a great argument for textual criticism.

Next you'll bring Dogs and parrots into the argument.

 

[anonymous9887]

Yes. But you said that theres no complete Quran. Could you agree that claim is false?



No one knows who wrote any of the early manuscripts. Most of it is scholarly assertions.

Now, how would you know Uthman died around 660?



Original and Topkapi? What is the original?

Variants exist because variants exist. Reasons could be given, but they are more guesswork. I prefer to study them and establish a certain scholarly assessment.
But I dont see any point discussing them in detail.



Lol. Secular evidence to a God. Now thats something new.
God created crippled children, thats a great argument for textual criticism.

Next you'll bring Dogs and parrots into the argument.

There is no complete manuscripts that is what I am saying and I stick to it.

 

[firedragon]

So do you accept the fact that you have no secular resources but only the own manuscripts themselves attest about themselves?

Okay tell me like Im a 3 year old what exactly your question is. You want secular sources for what? Muhammed or the Quran?

Quran, secular sources are manuscripts. Theological sources are completely different.
Muhammed, the earliest source is the Quran itself.

Historically there was a battle of Gabitha in the year 636, just four years after the prophet died. This was a battle between Arabs and Byzantines. You should do some research on a document written shortly after this war that mentions Muhammed. (Just FYI, the document was not written by a Muslim)
There was an Armenian Bishop (I think Sebeos) who mentions Muhammed written somewhere around 660 or shortly after.

 

[firedragon]

There is no complete manuscripts that is what I am saying and I stick to it.

In that case, I recommend eye drops.

 

[firedragon]

Actually vaticanus is complete and so is sinaiticus, we have more information than necessary in those manuscripts.

Sinaiticus is complete? Have you seen it? Cmon Paul. Dont be dishonest.
Okay, if they are complete how can that have more information than necessary? Is that precaution for apocrypha etc?

And what is this thing about having more information than necessary mate. You should not do that.

Peace mate.

 

[anonymous9887]

Okay tell me like Im a 3 year old what exactly your question is. You want secular sources for what? Muhammed or the Quran?

Quran, secular sources are manuscripts. Theological sources are completely different.
Muhammed, the earliest source is the Quran itself.

Historically there was a battle of Gabitha in the year 636, just four years after the prophet died. This was a battle between Arabs and Byzantines. You should do some research on a document written shortly after this war that mentions Muhammed. (Just FYI, the document was not written by a Muslim)
There was an Armenian Bishop (I think Sebeos) who mentions Muhammed written somewhere around 660 or shortly after.

Ok thanks that's what I am asking for.

 

[Augustus]

There is no point arguing about this Augustus. You can believe what you want but I would prefer not to hear generic arguments over and over again.

Your point is valid, not here.

I'd prefer not to see information that is still very much open to debate presented again and again as uncontested fact that can't be argued with because it matches some people's ideological goals. But we can't have everything we want.

 

[anonymous9887]

In that case, I recommend eye drops.

Are there manuscripts that are complete (meaning 100%, not lacking any reading)
Yes or no?

 

[anonymous9887]

Sinaiticus is complete? Have you seen it? Cmon Paul. Dont be dishonest.
Okay, if they are complete how can that have more information than necessary? Is that precaution for apocrypha etc?

And what is this thing about having more information than necessary mate. You should not do that.

Peace mate.

Scholarship says sinaiticus and vaticanus are complete.

 

[anonymous9887]

Ok thanks that's what I am asking for.

What's the name of the document you are talking about? About the war.

 

[Augustus]

What's the name of the document you are talking about? About the war.

Almost all early references are discussed here:

https://www.academia.edu/9547975/Seeing_Islam_as_Others_saw_it_by_Robert_G_Hoyland

Try page 57, 117, etc

 

[anonymous9887]

Almost all early references are discussed here:

https://www.academia.edu/9547975/Seeing_Islam_as_Others_saw_it_by_Robert_G_Hoyland

Try page 57, 117, etc

What are your thoughts on Islam?
What makes it a deal breaker for you?

 

[Sabour]

1. He created us perfect
2. He created us with the ability to obey him perfectly.
3. He created the earth to be inhabited with perfect offspring and for us to be truly happy under his complete rulership, unlike now that man and satan are doing as they please.
4. He created us to live forever.

Where is the suffering part? Why people get diseases and why they die? Wasn't it that your questions were about how Islam answers these questions?

 

[anonymous9887]

Where is the suffering part? Why people get diseases and why they die? Wasn't it that your questions were about how Islam answers these questions?

1. We get diseases and die because of sin and our inherited imperfections. Also environmental aspects play a factor, but that also leads to man doing things man's way. Disastrous results.
2. We suffer because Adam sinned and we were kicked out from having the kind of relationship Adam had with God.
But Satan is God's greatest enemy and satan is in control by gods permission.
1 john 5:19
2 Corinthians 4:4
Luke 4:6
Revelation 12:9
John 14:30
This tells us who is the ruler and why we have the results we have.

 

[Sabour]

1. We get diseases and die because of sin and our inherited imperfections. Also environmental aspects play a factor, but that also leads to man doing things man's way. Disastrous results.
2. We suffer because Adam sinned and we were kicked out from having the kind of relationship Adam had with God.
But Satan is God's greatest enemy and satan is in control by gods permission.
1 john 5:19
2 Corinthians 4:4
Luke 4:6
Revelation 12:9
John 14:30
This tells us who is the ruler and why we have the results we have.

God has created everything and He has the ability to do anything. Diseases and death are not outside God's will. If you don't believe in that, you have a major problem of who God is.

If you believe this, which I think is the case, than you are just twisting things around to sound like that bad things are outside God's will.

Quraan is straight forwards about such questions. No need to play around and giving unreasonable explanations.

 

[anonymous9887]

God has created everything and He has the ability to do anything. Diseases and death are not outside God's will. If you don't believe in that, you have a major problem of who God is.

If you believe this, which I think is the case, than you are just twisting things around to sound like that bad things are outside God's will.

Quraan is straight forwards about such questions. No need to play around and giving unreasonable explanations.

1. Well to bad you believe in a god who predestined us to suffer die and be born crippled and suffer natural disasters.
2. My god Jehovah created all things good. He made everything good and wanted the best for us, but we had free will, god told him what would be the consequences for his disobedience. But he chose death. Life and death were put before his face god wanted him to choose obedience, but he didnt.