1. Sure.
2. It varies. This website gives some useful pointers: http://www.islamicboard.com/qur-an/134318371-memorise-quran.html
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after five years, i left islam. here's one huge contradiction in the qur`an
- Thread starter Kelvin Davidson
- Start date
1. Sure.
2. It varies. This website gives some useful pointers: http://www.islamicboard.com/qur-an/134318371-memorise-quran.html
The oral tradition is also evidence, evidence that we can listen to. It is just as valid.
Can God prevent someone from being crippled?
I don't see what this has to do with my post (which was a response to one of firedragon's posts).
As above, I don't see what this has to do with my post (which was a response to one of firedragon's posts).
anonymous9887
bible reader
I say god has the power to intervene when others exercise their free will, but he also has the option to allow individuals to continue. But to say god right now is intimately connected in everyone's life and causes these things to happen no, it's not acceptable.
Well you believe according to the Qur'an that angels have no free will. I believe angels have free will.
God is not responsible for children in Africa starving, it is our society.
anonymous9887
bible reader
He can so why doesn't he?
anonymous9887
bible reader
No because we don't know if those people back then even had the same dedication.
My question exactly.
anonymous9887
bible reader
You and others claim god is fully responsible for everything that is going on around us, and is intimately involved.
1. God had a perfect way of life set before us to be under his full direction.
2. I believe God not being involved in the world is actually the problem with the world. We have these problems because the majority of the human race choose to follow their own wayward course.
3. If we follow the scriptures we will have a better life.
4. God has gotten involved in that he put a solution to the alienation from god to reconcile us back to him.
5. To say god is responsible for creating us to die, creating us to suffer, creating us to be in poverty, created us to be molested, created us to be disabled, created us to be killed, created us to be tortured, created us to fight, this idea that God willed that for us is completely irrational. If a human would not do that out of love for human kind how much more so god who is the greatest good.
6. Not to mention that if all the people that suffered those things don't believe in god because bad people have it better and there is no justice, how can god still put people in eternal fire to suffer forever.
7. My god created all things good. Our free will created this corrupt world and the explanation of what went wrong and why it is taking some time, as to what had to be accomplished 1st before he brings satan to a finish and the wicked people.
8. But one thing is great about my god, his intentions were never for us to suffer, a situation came up because of Satan's free will, and god had to respond.
Sabour
Well-Known Member
Giving the notion that some things are run outside God's permission is not an acceptable thing for me to even consider at all. This would make God incapable somewhere, and hence not a god.
Thank you for showing your point of view. I respectfully disagree.
firedragon
Veteran Member
What do you think? Whose stories are there in the Quran bro?
Whats the content of the Quran? Is it about people in the Saudi region during 7th century?
I was asked to provide third party attestation of the Quran and the example was Jesus being mentioned by Josephus and Tacitus. Bible and Quran are Chalk and Cheese. Bible is a narration of stories. Gospels narrate the story of Jesus, four different books on the story of Jesus. Its more of Theology about Jesus, not the Theology of Jesus. Then there are other writings which were letters and books like revelations.
The Quran is not the same. It contains concise narrations of historical figures much much much more than Muhammed. Muhammeds story is not cited at all. Nor any of ME characters during his time. Thus, external attestation of even Muhammed is an absurd requirement for the veracity the Quran.
That was my point which I am still not sure if you got. On the phone, cant type too much.
Cheers.
If the Quran is
anonymous9887
bible reader
1. Ok so you would rather have a god that causes woman and children to get raped, cause natural disasters, created us to die, causes children to be borne with defect, causes wars, famine, pestilence, all the results of this life are gods doing.
Or
2. God allows things to happen, but he did not intend this originally for us to suffer and die and these things.
I respectfully say your god is wicked.
So you would cause your children to get molested, get sick and die, cause wars, and expect them to love you?
Tyranny
firedragon
Veteran Member
God commands murder. Mass murder. Genocide.
Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his peo-ple Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD.
This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.
- Now go, attack the Amalekites
- and totally destroy all that belongs to them.
- Do not spare them;
- put to death men and women,
- children and infants,
- cattle and sheep,
- camels and donkeys.’
God creates trial after trial. The reason? Your sin, not inherited sin.
“I gave you empty stomachs in every city and lack of bread in every town, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the LORD.
“I also withheld rain from you when the harvest was still three months away. I sent rain on one town, but withheld it from another. One field had rain; another had none and dried up. People staggered from town to town for water but did not get enough to drink, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the LoRD.
“Many times I struck your gardens and vineyards, destroying them with blight and mildew. Locusts devoured your fig and olive trees, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the LORD. “I sent plagues among you as I did to Egypt. I killed your young men with the sword,
along with your captured horses. I filled your nostrils with the stench of your camps, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the L
ORD.
“I overthrew some of you as I overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. You were like a burning stick snatched from the fire, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the LORD. “Therefore this is what I will do to you, Israel, and because I will do this to you, Israel,
prepare to meet your God.” He who forms the mountains, who creates the wind, and who reveals his thoughts to mortals, who turns dawn to darkness, and treads on the heights of the earth—the LORD God Almighty is his name.
Amos Chapter 4
No inherited sin. You sin, you die. You do good, you live. No one is responsible for your sin.
The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. But if the wicked turn away from all the sins they have committed and keep all my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live; they will not die.
None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. Do I take any pleasure in
the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
“But if the righteous turn from their righteousness and commit sin and do the same detestable things the wicked do, will they live? None of the righteous things they have done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.
anonymous9887
bible reader
first of all you should not even be a part of this discussion since you don't even want to answer the interpretation of Sura 3:6. you don't deserve a response, but I will give it to you anyway.
1. All of the people in the world at that point in time knew the god of the Hebrews and how Jehovah was with them. they had all heard what had happened to Egypt and they also heard of many of Jehovah's works.
2. Before Jehovah makes a judgment he makes things very clear to the people, and Jehovah himself said that the nations will hear about you and will fear you.
3. before any war or anything broke of the opposing nations were given a chance to surrender and the first thing the Israelites would do was see if these people wanted to make peace.
4. there are numerous examples where Jehovah allows the foreigner to come in and be a proselyte, when they finished off Egypt Egyptians left with them. Ruth was a Moabite, and there are many other examples.
5. with that being said the nations that the Israelites were commanded to destroy knew about the only true god Jehovah, the practices that those nations had were terrible (sacrificing their own children), they were stubborn they would not surrender or submit to true worship. so now what? Judgment was done because of the wickedness the nations did, and after seeing the results that the only true god did, they still decided to worship false gods.
So the judgment on the nations was just. by the way I only scratched the surface of the terrible practices the nations did.
So now that I have clarified why the man and woman were killed ( because they had a chance to seek for true worship but didn't) now I have the task of explaining why the infants were killed.
1. so one the parents had a responsibility over their children, and they would not let them go. Not to mention that even if the babies had grown up with these nations, they might have been sacrificed.
2. We know also that god could have exercised his foreknowledge and could have known what kind of people they were going to grow up to be.
3. the other option is that if the Israelites had adopted these children the history would have been there of what the Israelites had to do to their parents, and would have retaliated. But no matter which way you look at it, gods foreknowledge had to be exercised.
4. Because this happened to the parents, the best way of life for the infants was to take their lives and guarantee them a spot in the resurrection. After all god would have to clean up what those nations created with those children, but what those nations did was not gods fault and god gave them the best solution possible. Did god want these people to do these detestable things? no. the nations chose to make these choices, god merely gave the infants the best option available given the choices of their own parents being stubborn. And even if the Israelites did adopt these children, the Israelites were stubborn people themselves, so being under their care may have not been the best thing for the infants.
the scripture you are using, you are taking out of context.
the one who sins is the one who will die
Ezekiel 18:21 if someone wicked turns from his sin he will keep on living.
1. the plain fact is we all die.
2. there were and are people that have repented for their sin and they die, so obviously god is talking about ultimately they will not Die, they will have a hope of another life.
3. even if we die in the flesh, that does not mean we have died according to god. If we lived a wicked life according to god then when we die that's it. but if we although being sinners pursued righteousness die, god gives us a hope to live again.
4. because in all reality god is in control of our eternal life so he decides if we will live or die.
You are also comparing apples and oranges if you are trying to compare Israel with modern day testing. Here is why:
1. The Israelites experienced so much more of god than anyone.
2. the more you know the more you are responsible for, they saw first hand how Jehovah delivered them with a mighty hand, their faith should have been great towards god.
3. they would get direct instruction from god, he told them ahead of time what would happen if they deviated from him, and they agreed to keep the covenant. so then they suffered the consequences for deviating from god and what they were told in advance.
4. but they agreed, still apples and oranges.
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firedragon
Veteran Member
Sorry I didn't abide by your rules your highness.
Let me tell you something mate. Theodicy. God and suffering. Both can together be probably the most diversely answered, most difficult to answer, the most disputed, contradicted and unanswered subjects in Theology and religion. If this can be answered in a few words or nutshell post, that's not an answer, that's an excuse.
I doubt with this kind of answers you see all over we are not ready to face reality. That is why there are brash and hurried replies that dont seem to make sense. Sometimes we get angrier than we normally will with other subjects.
If you expect me to answer in a nutshell, sorry mate. No way. I gave you a long and exploratory answer for you to figure out the end but you never read through, you kept asking me for an answer in a nutshell or with a few sentences, which is not gonna happen.
But when you make claims you have to substantiate it. And when you make claims like you did, you will see responses because you dont use the context of the bible, or any other scripture. The bible does not have the concept of inherited sin. Its a concept. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father.
And you call someone elses God as a cruel God when in your bible God commands genocide. Murder of all, men, women, children and animals. Its a direct command of God. There can be no reason to kill children, this is while God says in Ezekiel "The son shall not bear the guilt of the father".
Iqra.
anonymous9887
bible reader
well I clearly offered a response to everything that you had mentioned but I told you that I will not bear the guilt of my parents, because when Judgment day comes ( which was predestined from long ago) we will each stand alone before the judgment seat of god. So If my mom chooses to live a life full of sin and not repent, she will pay for her own error on judgment day, I cannot be held responsible for something she did. the same with me, if I choose to disobey, she is not responsible for my actions.
I think the replies I gave you are very well answered. I think the bible is very explicit on theodicy, and I think people complicate it. Simple what is sura 3:6 talking about? I gave you a reply, you just for reasons unspecified do not accept my response, im not even sure you read it.
firedragon
Veteran Member
How do you distinguish between Israelites and Amelakites. By saying this you say the Israelis were killed like this? Still, why the children? Your explanation for murder of children for their fathers sins is simply absurd. And this while God says "The son shall not bear the guilt of the father". Are you saying God is a hypocrite? Its the same book mate.
How about the Benjamites? Do you consider them Israelites as well? How about Jabesh Gilead? The people were killed, all men and women except for virgins. Why? Because they didnt attend the assembly. Well, that was all an excuse. The 400 virgins were brought to be given to the Benjamites. For what? To comb their hair? Oh, they should have been grateful for sparing their life, they were only deprived of their family, kidnapped and given to be wives. Given, not allowed. Now what is this about a cruel God you said?
firedragon
Veteran Member
THen why did you justify killing of children?
What else is inherited sin?
This is the language of the bible. You should understand it more. No one is to suffer because of another persons sin. Read the context of the verse "The son shall not bear the guilt of the father". Dont just answer to that sentence as if you are blind to the rest. Understand what it says.
Here you go again.
The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. But if the wicked turn away from all the sins they have committed and keep all my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live; they will not die.
None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. Do I take any pleasure in
the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
“But if the righteous turn from their righteousness and commit sin and do the same detestable things the wicked do, will they live? None of the righteous things they have done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Nope. Its contradictory. You have not read the whole bible.