after five years, i left islam. here's one huge contradiction in the qur`an

[Sabour]

1. Well to bad you believe in a god who predestined us to suffer die and be born crippled and suffer natural disasters.
2. My god Jehovah created all things good. He made everything good and wanted the best for us, but we had free will, god told him what would be the consequences for his disobedience. But he chose death. Life and death were put before his face god wanted him to choose obedience, but he didnt.

1. I believe in a God that controls everything around, including being crippled a suffer natural disasters.

See, people born crippled and natural disasters are both facts that occur in our lives. If you believe that God has no authority over two things, than you have a wrong definition of who God is.

As I said, the reasons for suffering are

1- Test for the believers.

29:2 [29:2] Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe," without being put to the test?

[29:3] We have tested those before them, for God must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

also:

[2:155] We will surely test you through some fear, hunger, and loss of money, lives, and crops. Give good news to the steadfast.


To pass the test, the believer must maintain his trust that God only can relieve his hardship. The believer will maintain his prayer and call onto God:

[27:62] Who is the One who rescues those who become desperate and call upon Him, relieves adversity, and makes you inheritors of the earth? Is it another god with God? Rarely do you take heed.


2- Hardship and adversity is also decreed by God as a purifying of our souls



3- Suffering through hardship and adversity is also a reminder for people who tend to take things for granted and forget all of God’s blessings.

[14:34] If you count God's blessings, you can never encompass them. Indeed, the human being is transgressing, unappreciative.
[41:51] When we bless the human being, he turns away, and drifts farther and farther away, and when he suffers any affliction, he implores loudly.

[10:23] But as soon as He saves them, they transgress on earth, and oppose the truth. O people, your transgression is only to the detriment of your own souls. You remain preoccupied with this worldly life, then to us is your ultimate return, then we inform you of everything you had done.


4- Better ranking in heaven because of patience

2:45 Nay, seek (Allah's) help with patient perseverance and prayer: It is indeed hard, except to those who bring a lowly spirit,-

2:155 And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient,

3:200 O you who believe! Endure and be more patient (than your enemy), and guard your territory by stationing army units permanently at the places from where the enemy can attack you, and fear Allah, so that you may be successful.


And if we really think about it and think who were people who suffered the most, we will see that it was the prophets, they are the ones who have the highest ranks in heaven.


Additionally, we must not forget the patience is one of the keys towards heaven.

2:45 And seek help through patience and prayer, and indeed, it is difficult except for the humbly submissive [to Allah ]
2:153 O you who have believed, seek help through patience and prayer. Indeed, Allah is with the patient.

Additionally I have stated that things work by cause and effect, it is the way God designed the world. Meaning that our actions have consequences.

Now which makes more sense? This, or what you said below?

2. We suffer because Adam sinned and we were kicked out from having the kind of relationship Adam had with God.

Additionally, you were questioning how merciful God is in islam. You implied He is not because of allowing suffering. If these are the standards you are judging by, how come that " satan is in control by gods permission. " is a merciful thing?


To put you in the big picture, you are saying that God in Islam is not merciful for allowing suffering.
God in Christianity (or what ?) is merciful because he gave the permission to satan to control us, and satan does the evil. Why would God give permission to Satan when God knows he will do evil?

 

[anonymous9887]

1. I believe in a God that controls everything around, including being crippled a suffer natural disasters.

See, people born crippled and natural disasters are both facts that occur in our lives. If you believe that God has no authority over two things, than you have a wrong definition of who God is.

As I said, the reasons for suffering are

1- Test for the believers.

29:2 [29:2] Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe," without being put to the test?

[29:3] We have tested those before them, for God must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

also:

[2:155] We will surely test you through some fear, hunger, and loss of money, lives, and crops. Give good news to the steadfast.


To pass the test, the believer must maintain his trust that God only can relieve his hardship. The believer will maintain his prayer and call onto God:

[27:62] Who is the One who rescues those who become desperate and call upon Him, relieves adversity, and makes you inheritors of the earth? Is it another god with God? Rarely do you take heed.


2- Hardship and adversity is also decreed by God as a purifying of our souls



3- Suffering through hardship and adversity is also a reminder for people who tend to take things for granted and forget all of God’s blessings.

[14:34] If you count God's blessings, you can never encompass them. Indeed, the human being is transgressing, unappreciative.
[41:51] When we bless the human being, he turns away, and drifts farther and farther away, and when he suffers any affliction, he implores loudly.

[10:23] But as soon as He saves them, they transgress on earth, and oppose the truth. O people, your transgression is only to the detriment of your own souls. You remain preoccupied with this worldly life, then to us is your ultimate return, then we inform you of everything you had done.


4- Better ranking in heaven because of patience

2:45 Nay, seek (Allah's) help with patient perseverance and prayer: It is indeed hard, except to those who bring a lowly spirit,-

2:155 And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient,

3:200 O you who believe! Endure and be more patient (than your enemy), and guard your territory by stationing army units permanently at the places from where the enemy can attack you, and fear Allah, so that you may be successful.


And if we really think about it and think who were people who suffered the most, we will see that it was the prophets, they are the ones who have the highest ranks in heaven.


Additionally, we must not forget the patience is one of the keys towards heaven.

2:45 And seek help through patience and prayer, and indeed, it is difficult except for the humbly submissive [to Allah ]
2:153 O you who have believed, seek help through patience and prayer. Indeed, Allah is with the patient.

Additionally I have stated that things work by cause and effect, it is the way God designed the world. Meaning that our actions have consequences.

Now which makes more sense? This, or what you said below?




Additionally, you were questioning how merciful God is in islam. You implied He is not because of allowing suffering. If these are the standards you are judging by, how come that " satan is in control by gods permission. " is a merciful thing?


To put you in the big picture, you are saying that God in Islam is not merciful for allowing suffering.
God in Christianity (or what ?) is merciful because he gave the permission to satan to control us, and satan does the evil. Why would God give permission to Satan when God knows he will do evil?

1. Well for one god could have annihilated satan and Adam and eve and that's that.
2. Adam and eve chose to disobey god knowing the consequences.
3. The consequences that were after sin is living apart from gods direct instruction. Allowing them to continue proves 2 things, that Satan's rulership is a lie, and every type of rulership has been tried and failed. The only true way is God's way.
3. Satan has a challenge against mankind
Job 2:4
Revelation 12:10
Satan has challenged our loyalty to god

 

[anonymous9887]

1. I believe in a God that controls everything around, including being crippled a suffer natural disasters.

See, people born crippled and natural disasters are both facts that occur in our lives. If you believe that God has no authority over two things, than you have a wrong definition of who God is.

As I said, the reasons for suffering are

1- Test for the believers.

29:2 [29:2] Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe," without being put to the test?

[29:3] We have tested those before them, for God must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

also:

[2:155] We will surely test you through some fear, hunger, and loss of money, lives, and crops. Give good news to the steadfast.


To pass the test, the believer must maintain his trust that God only can relieve his hardship. The believer will maintain his prayer and call onto God:

[27:62] Who is the One who rescues those who become desperate and call upon Him, relieves adversity, and makes you inheritors of the earth? Is it another god with God? Rarely do you take heed.


2- Hardship and adversity is also decreed by God as a purifying of our souls



3- Suffering through hardship and adversity is also a reminder for people who tend to take things for granted and forget all of God’s blessings.

[14:34] If you count God's blessings, you can never encompass them. Indeed, the human being is transgressing, unappreciative.
[41:51] When we bless the human being, he turns away, and drifts farther and farther away, and when he suffers any affliction, he implores loudly.

[10:23] But as soon as He saves them, they transgress on earth, and oppose the truth. O people, your transgression is only to the detriment of your own souls. You remain preoccupied with this worldly life, then to us is your ultimate return, then we inform you of everything you had done.


4- Better ranking in heaven because of patience

2:45 Nay, seek (Allah's) help with patient perseverance and prayer: It is indeed hard, except to those who bring a lowly spirit,-

2:155 And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient,

3:200 O you who believe! Endure and be more patient (than your enemy), and guard your territory by stationing army units permanently at the places from where the enemy can attack you, and fear Allah, so that you may be successful.


And if we really think about it and think who were people who suffered the most, we will see that it was the prophets, they are the ones who have the highest ranks in heaven.


Additionally, we must not forget the patience is one of the keys towards heaven.

2:45 And seek help through patience and prayer, and indeed, it is difficult except for the humbly submissive [to Allah ]
2:153 O you who have believed, seek help through patience and prayer. Indeed, Allah is with the patient.

Additionally I have stated that things work by cause and effect, it is the way God designed the world. Meaning that our actions have consequences.

Now which makes more sense? This, or what you said below?




Additionally, you were questioning how merciful God is in islam. You implied He is not because of allowing suffering. If these are the standards you are judging by, how come that " satan is in control by gods permission. " is a merciful thing?


To put you in the big picture, you are saying that God in Islam is not merciful for allowing suffering.
God in Christianity (or what ?) is merciful because he gave the permission to satan to control us, and satan does the evil. Why would God give permission to Satan when God knows he will do evil?

But god created everything good humans angels and satan were all created good. But they chose to disobey.

 

[firedragon]

Are there manuscripts that are complete (meaning 100%, not lacking any reading)
Yes or no?

Tareq Rajab Museum in Kuwait has a fully complete manuscript of the Quran.
http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...ion-in-the-qur-an.188049/page-30#post-4794201

 

[anonymous9887]

Tareq Rajab Museum in Kuwait has a fully complete manuscript of the Quran.
http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...ion-in-the-qur-an.188049/page-30#post-4794201

Yeah but that does not carry authority that the others do, for all we know it contains additions.
Now if you found a complete manuscript dated in between the Topkapi and the earlier fragments then you have something.

 

[firedragon]

Scholarship says sinaiticus and vaticanus are complete.

What is complete?

Mate they are not complete. In scholarship when we say complete we mean it has books from the beginning to the end and it has the OT and the NT. That does not mean its physically complete. Also it has some of the apocrypha that protestant bibles don't have.

The Quran is one book. Thus the scholarship works completely differently.

Sinaiticus has about half of the OT. But it has the complete NT along with Epistle of Barnabus and Shepherd of Hermas. Its online for study and I have an XML version as well. This is a favourite of scholars because of the ingenuity.

Do you know that the Gospel of John alone has over 1,000 variants between Vaticanus and Sinaiticus? Only the John. 3,000 variants only between the four canonical gospels in between Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. I say again, only the four gospels. John has only 21 chapters. 1000 variants. And that is without considering iotacism.

Most of these don't make a big difference. And we haven't considered the thousands of scribal corrections found in the manuscripts. Most of those guys who talk of variants in the Quran count all the corrections.

When you say complete we should know what it means. And we should not quote if we don't know what we are talking about.

Peace.

 

[firedragon]

The one he says is 99% complete comes years after the death of uthman 50 years approximately and varies from the original "fragments".
So how is firedragon making a point?

From a man who believes in a book that doesnt have a complete copy for over 300 years of its supposed origin, which itself is 30 years at the earliest from the source, this is one hypocritical statement. 50 vs 350. Hmmm, quite a small difference.

 

[firedragon]

I'd prefer not to see information that is still very much open to debate presented again and again as uncontested fact that can't be argued with because it matches some people's ideological goals. But we can't have everything we want.

Some are not open for debate mate.
Whatever Trevor.

 

[anonymous9887]

From a man who believes in a book that doesnt have a complete copy for over 300 years of its supposed origin, which itself is 30 years at the earliest from the source, this is one hypocritical statement. 50 vs 350. Hmmm, quite a small difference.

Yeah but we have many copies coming from different places, it's highly unlikely that they all changed the text significantly, but if they all came from the same place and are in agreement about certain events then it must be true. We have more evidence to look at then does the Qur'an. The bible is the book that has the best evidence to stand in a court of law. Recitation from now won't get you that.

 

[firedragon]

Yeah but we have many copies coming from different places, it's highly unlikely that they all changed the significantly, but if they all came from the same place and are in agreement about certain events then it must be true. We have more evidence to look at then does the Qur'an. The bible is the book that has the best evidence to stand in a court of law. Recitation from now won't get you that.

You are paying lip service to what other generally say.

You want evidence. Do you know how many manuscripts there are?

 

[Augustus]

Some are not open for debate mate.

The dating of Late Antique manuscripts very much is though, but you knew that already.

You're usually better than spreading obvious untruths in pursuit of an apologetic agenda.

 

[firedragon]

The dating of Late Antique manuscripts very much is though, but you knew that already.

You're usually better than spreading obvious untruths in pursuit of an apologetic agenda.

Not in this case. You're usually better with a subject you know better so that you dont have to apply plug and play solutions.

 

[Augustus]

Not in this case. You're usually better with a subject you know better so that you dont have to apply plug and play solutions.

Ok, I'll bite.

Make your argument that the dating is 'not open to debate'

This would be a world first, and could make you a star. You would single handedly have changed several academic disciplines and basic assumptions regarding science and mathematics, and, at the same time, made a wonderful discovery for the Ummah.

Don't hide your light under a bushel, you would be doing the world a disservice.

 

[firedragon]

Make your argument that the dating is 'not open to debate'

I didnt say dating is not open to debate. I gave you points for the confidence level, some which are not open for debate. You should recap. Dont make it generic.

Cheers.

 

[Augustus]

I didnt say dating is not open to debate. I gave you points for the confidence level, some which are not open for debate. You should recap. Dont make it generic.

Precisely which things do you consider to be 'beyond debate', you just made a few assertions before? You surely aren't arguing that the confidence level is not open to debate are you?

 

[firedragon]

Precisely which things do you consider to be 'beyond debate', you just made a few assertions before? You surely aren't arguing that the confidence level is not open to debate are you?

Cmon Augustus. You have better understanding of what someone says.

 

[Augustus]

Cmon Augustus. You have better understanding of what someone says.

Perhaps I'm stupid, but I've quite genuinely no idea what you are saying is 'not up for debate'.

Can you just clarify it in very simple terms?

 

[anonymous9887]

You are paying lip service to what other generally say.

You want evidence. Do you know how many manuscripts there are?

5700 roughly not including those in other languages.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

I was kidding.

Anyway, you should have read the whole post. The Quran is not a story teller like the bible thus Quranic characters needing external attestation is not something I go for.

We Muslims claim that the Quran is for eternity etc but whenever some question arises about some verses our answer is that it was for that time, in a particular situation.

I dont agree. The Quran basically is not relevant to that time, place or people.

Cheers.

Salaam,

I have read all your posts.

I'm still not really understanding what you mean by the Qur'aan not being relevant to 'that time, place or people' - which time, place and people do you feel the Qur'aan is relevant for?

Wassalaam

 

[Sabour]

But god created everything good humans angels and satan were all created good. But they chose to disobey.

Angels never go against God.

Humans are good by their nature, but they have desires which may lead them to go off the road if they didn't follow the guidance.

Satan clearly chose to disobey.

However, this doesn't rule out that God is in control of everything. Anything He wants, He would just say be, and it is.