Alabama passes bill making some transgender healthcare a felony

[nPeace]

The world's mess can be solved by applying bronze age morality? How's that?

We were talking about what solves the problem, or the fact that the world is a mess because... "We've learned a lot since..."?

Most religious people have differing views from each other. We're human that way.

Yes. Religious people have differing views.
No. That's not what makes us human... or we're not human that way.

But no, I doubt I've spoken to a Satanist from every sect.

Of course you haven't.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well that’s what I meant, once a person starts down that road to the end, there is a point of no return. Once the transition is complete with surgery there is no going back. Not only that but the female is still a female and the male is still a male even when the surgery is done.

A transition doesn't start with surgery.

 

[ElishaElijah]

A transition doesn't start with surgery.

I didn’t say it did, that’s where that road goes and there is a point of no return.

 

[fantome profane]

You read my post. You picked one line from it.
You decided who those people are. Now you are asking me to explain who those people are.
That's interesting.

I said...
Quote
I think this all boils down to a fight between people who want change in culture and society, standards, values, morals... you name it, and people who want to keep a culture and society with those standards, values, morals, etc, and not have it change to what the opposing side wants. ...and I think the opposing side believes they have a right to win.

Why? I think I know, but you tell me.
Why should you - not you as in you, but you know what I mean Why should you win this fight, and the other side surrender to you?
Unquote

I think it's obvious whom I meant.
I'm talking to an Atheist. Most often I am, in issues like this.
So it should be clear that I included Atheists in people who want change in culture and society, standards, values, morals.
In fact, I don't know of anyone else who fits that, except a few religious... none of whom come to mind right now... Oh yeah. There are the fickle, who bend and sway with the changing tide, and the ones who are in it for show... or the money.
People who try to hold to 'set' standards, or values, are usually religious.

So yes. I did involve Atheists... primarily.
No. I didn't later, bring them up.

Does that answer your questions?
Oh. I do not get involve in Politics, or what Politicians do, or don't do.

Thank you. Honestly even after reading this I am still not sure how the issue of atheists got into this thread, but I think it is best just to move on.

But you seem to argue that this is about “those who want to change culture and those who don’t”. That might be a concern for one side, but I think for the other side it is about the health and well being of their children. You might not agree, but you certainly can understand that if a parent sees their child suffering and believes they need to do something to protect them, that parent is not going to give much thought to culture or tradition.

You seem to think one side has a desire to change culture etc. I think it is closer to the truth that they don’t care. Speaking for myself I can assure you I don’t care in the least about changing culture. If there is a certain tradition that is about helping people, treating them with dignity and respect, about equality I will fight passionately to keep that tradition, to preserve those values and standards. If there is a certain culture that is about oppressing people, about disrespecting them, about denying them care, I will fight against that tradition. Those are values and standards that need to go.

The point is that for me, for many people, tradition is not really the deciding factor.


And as for why I think “my side deserves to win” I think I have explained that ad nauseam. But I will repeat myself once again. Please forgive me if you have heard this before.

First I am not advocating any specific treatment, or any treatment at all. I am not qualified to make decisions like that.

There are medical experts who have studied this issue in great detail, collected and analyzed considerable data. There are doctors who have close relationships with their patients, and there are parents who love their children and only want the best for them. That is the side that should win, clearly.

If this side recommends no treatment, or no treatment till a certain age, I am not going to disagree.

The other side are Republican lawmakers, who even if they bothered consulting their advisors on the issue could not possibly gain a fraction of the understanding of the medical experts who have made this their careers. They do not have the understanding of physicians who have been treating these children for years. And they absolutely do not love these children like their parents do. This is the side that must not prevail.



I know I am repeating myself. I have probably said this five or six times in this thread. I will repeat it again if you want. I will repeat it 50, 60 more time if that will help.

 

[nPeace]

Thank you. Honestly even after reading this I an still not sure how the issue of atheists got into this thread, but I think it is best just to move on.

But you seem to argue that this is about “those who want to change culture and those who don’t”. That might be a concern for one side, but I think the other side is about the health and well being of their children. You might not agree, but you certainly can understand that if a parent sees their child suffering and believes they need to do something to protect them, that parent is not going to give much thought to culture or tradition.

You seem to think one side has a desire to change culture etc. I think it is closer to the truth that they don’t care. Speaking for myself I can assure you I don’t care in the least about changing culture. If there is a certain tradition that is about helping people, treating them with dignity and respect, about equality I will fight passionately to keep that tradition, to preserve those values and standards. If there is a certain culture that is about oppressing people, about disrespecting them, about denying them care, I will fight against that tradition. Those are values and standards that need to go.

The point is that for me, for many people, tradition is not really the deciding factor.


And as for why I think “my side deserves to win” I think I have explained that ad nauseam. But I will repeat myself once again. Please forgive me if you have heard this before.

First I am not advocating any specific treatment, or any treatment at all. I am not qualified to make decisions like that.

There are medical experts who have studied this issue in great detail, collected and analyzed considerable data. There are doctors who have close relationships with their patients, and there are parents who love their children and only want the best for them. That is the side that should win, clearly.

If this side recommends no treatment, or no treatment till a certain age, I am not going to disagree.

The other side are Republican lawmakers, who even if they bothered consulting their advisors on the issue could not possibly gain a fraction of the understanding of the medical experts who have made this their careers. They do not have the understanding of physicians who have been treating these children for years. And they absolutely do not love these children like their parents do. This is the side that must not prevail.



I know I am repeating myself. I have probably said this five or six times in this thread. I will repeat it again if you want. I will repeat it 50, 60 more time if that will help.

If you don't mind repeating yourself...
Some people are in fights they are not even aware they are in.
Education plays a big part in that.
I know that people - including medical practitioners - have their views... often personal, and so they will go with those views regardless.
I've seen that happen... and it continues to happen.

Would this information make any difference to you, though?
A deeper analysis of mental illness and alternative gender identities is not undertaken, and common causal factors and confounders are not explored. This is worrying, as attempts to explore, formulate and treat coexisting mental illness, including that relating to childhood trauma, might then be considered tantamount to ‘conversion therapy’.

As there is evidence that many psychiatric disorders persist despite positive affirmation and medical transition, it is puzzling why transition would come to be seen as a key goal rather than other outcomes, such as improved quality of life and reduced morbidity.

There is a danger that poor-quality data are being used to support gender affirmation and transition without the strength of evidence that would normally determine pathways of care. One 20-year Swedish longitudinal cohort study showed persisting high levels of psychiatric morbidity, suicidal acts and completed suicide many years after medical transition.

 

[fantome profane]

If you don't mind repeating yourself...
Some people are in fights they are not even aware they are in.
Education plays a big part in that.
I know that people - including medical practitioners - have their views... often personal, and so they will go with those views regardless.
I've seen that happen... and it continues to happen.

Would this information make any difference to you, though?
A deeper analysis of mental illness and alternative gender identities is not undertaken, and common causal factors and confounders are not explored. This is worrying, as attempts to explore, formulate and treat coexisting mental illness, including that relating to childhood trauma, might then be considered tantamount to ‘conversion therapy’.

As there is evidence that many psychiatric disorders persist despite positive affirmation and medical transition, it is puzzling why transition would come to be seen as a key goal rather than other outcomes, such as improved quality of life and reduced morbidity.

There is a danger that poor-quality data are being used to support gender affirmation and transition without the strength of evidence that would normally determine pathways of care. One 20-year Swedish longitudinal cohort study showed persisting high levels of psychiatric morbidity, suicidal acts and completed suicide many years after medical transition.

I will repeat myself again. I am not promoting any specific treatment. If the evidence indicates that no treatment should be given I am fine with that.

If you are suggesting that more research should be done, I am all down with that.

But obviously the Republican lawmakers have not done that research. How can you believe that they are more qualified to make a blanket ruling for all children in their state. Are you suggesting that the Alabama legislature has a better system for weeding out personal bias than the scientific community?


Go to a medical conference. Make your arguments there. That is the proper place. Not the Alabama legislature.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Thank you. Honestly even after reading this I am still not sure how the issue of atheists got into this thread, but I think it is best just to move on.

But you seem to argue that this is about “those who want to change culture and those who don’t”. That might be a concern for one side, but I think for the other side it is about the health and well being of their children. You might not agree, but you certainly can understand that if a parent sees their child suffering and believes they need to do something to protect them, that parent is not going to give much thought to culture or tradition.

You seem to think one side has a desire to change culture etc. I think it is closer to the truth that they don’t care. Speaking for myself I can assure you I don’t care in the least about changing culture. If there is a certain tradition that is about helping people, treating them with dignity and respect, about equality I will fight passionately to keep that tradition, to preserve those values and standards. If there is a certain culture that is about oppressing people, about disrespecting them, about denying them care, I will fight against that tradition. Those are values and standards that need to go.

The point is that for me, for many people, tradition is not really the deciding factor.


And as for why I think “my side deserves to win” I think I have explained that ad nauseam. But I will repeat myself once again. Please forgive me if you have heard this before.

First I am not advocating any specific treatment, or any treatment at all. I am not qualified to make decisions like that.

There are medical experts who have studied this issue in great detail, collected and analyzed considerable data. There are doctors who have close relationships with their patients, and there are parents who love their children and only want the best for them. That is the side that should win, clearly.

If this side recommends no treatment, or no treatment till a certain age, I am not going to disagree.

The other side are Republican lawmakers, who even if they bothered consulting their advisors on the issue could not possibly gain a fraction of the understanding of the medical experts who have made this their careers. They do not have the understanding of physicians who have been treating these children for years. And they absolutely do not love these children like their parents do. This is the side that must not prevail.



I know I am repeating myself. I have probably said this five or six times in this thread. I will repeat it again if you want. I will repeat it 50, 60 more time if that will help.

On thing I hope we can all agree on here is that the parents should have the final say and authority in all areas of their children’s life, their health and education especially what is taught in schools.

 

[metis]

On thing I hope we can all agree on here is that the parents should have the final say and authority in all areas of their children’s life, their health and education especially what is taught in schools.

Yes, but tell the governor and the Pubs in Florida that.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Yes, but tell the governor and the Pubs in Florida that.

Tell all the government that, I agree. Are you just going to say Pubs or are you including Libs too? Get back to the Constitution where the legal citizens and taxpayers have the most say, whether you are conservative or liberal. Open debate, uncensored conversations about the issues, un biased media.

 

[fantome profane]

On thing I hope we can all agree on here is that the parents should have the final say and authority in all areas of their children’s life, their health and education especially what is taught in schools.

As long as you are talking about their children. A parent should not be able to dictate what books other people’s children are allowed to read in school.

 

[ElishaElijah]

As long as you are talking about their children. A parent should not be able to dictate what books other people’s children are allowed to read in school.

Their own children, yes. Can’t we come up with standard reading and learning material for public school that all parents can agree with and the rest of the more controversial subjects be taught outside of school in the home. This seems an easy solution.

 

[metis]

Tell all the government that, I agree. Are you just going to say Pubs or are you including Libs too?

Of course, and I include independents.

Get back to the Constitution where the legal citizens and taxpayers have the most say whether you are conservative or liberal.

Since I taught it for 25 years in my poli sci course, I've always been committed to that.

Open debate, uncensored conversations about the issues, un biased media.

Good luck with "unbiased media" as we do have freedom of speech here.

My solution to that is to "news surf", namely to check out many sources that come from a variety of positions. As I mentioned in a previous post but maybe on a different thread, ever since late elementary school whereas we were taught to "cross check" our math, I got used to not being locked into just one way of looking at things. And since science (anthropology) was and is my background and profession, this is what we are trained to do there as well.

 

[metis]

Can’t we come up with standard reading and learning material for public school that all parents can agree with and the rest of the more controversial subjects be taught outside of school in the home.

Good luck with that. Try, yes; expect full agreement, not at all likely.

 

[fantome profane]

Their own children, yes. Can’t we come up with standard reading and learning material for public school that all parents can agree with and the rest of the more controversial subjects be taught outside of school in the home. This seems an easy solution.

Are you suggesting “negotiations”? What a radical idea!

Let me ask you a simple question that I have been asking for a while now. I don’t think I have seen your answer yet.


At what age do you think it is appropriate for a child to see a heterosexual couple kissing in a movie or TV show?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Are you suggesting “negotiations”? What a radical idea!

Let me ask you a simple question that I have been asking for a while now. I don’t think I have seen your answer yet.


At what age do you think it is appropriate for a child to see a heterosexual couple kissing in a movie or TV show?

Well, I don’t have an age in mind other than they will probably see their parents. Would be up to the parents on which movies or TV show to watch and if the children had questions then the parents could instruct.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Good luck with that. Try, yes; expect full agreement, not at all likely.

Well a consensus, I don’t think you could get 100% but close and some of the ridiculous objections tossed.

 

[metis]

Well a consensus, I don’t think you could get 100% but close and some of the ridiculous objections tossed.

Ya, but is the consensus always right? For example, I think the overall consensus in the American South in the 1700-1800's was that blacks were inferior and slavery was all fine & dandy since they were only "property" anyway.

However, I'm not disagreeing with you, only pointing out that perfection is not to be found no matter how hard we may try.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Ya, but is the consensus always right? For example, I think the overall consensus in the American South in the 1700-1800's was that blacks were inferior and slavery was all fine & dandy since they were only "property" anyway.

However, I'm not disagreeing with you, only pointing out that perfection is not to be found no matter how hard we may try.

Well I don’t think perfection can be attained but we can start with where we have agreement, that’s probably a majority of areas.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Are you suggesting “negotiations”? What a radical idea!

Let me ask you a simple question that I have been asking for a while now. I don’t think I have seen your answer yet.


At what age do you think it is appropriate for a child to see a heterosexual couple kissing in a movie or TV show?

 

[fantome profane]

View attachment 62332

Obviously. But I didn’t make the trap, I am just pointing it out.