All laws abolished, by Jesus, or otherwise

[Desert Snake]

God made Man of dust does not exclude evolution

The Biblical verses state outright that man was made in...a day? That isn't evolution.

 

[Deeje]

There is a difference between a ''summary'', and a 'in the context of'; I'm reading it not as a summary, personally.

Matthew 22:34-40:
"But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. 35 One of them, lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.” (NASB)

That is what the Torah is, to you? Why would you even read it?

It was all the writings of Moses. It contained more than just the Law. It was the expression of God's will and the basis upon which humans could understand the predicament they were in, and how God was going to solve it.
Why wouldn't a worshipper of the true God want to read it? Genesis is one of my favorite books.

Generally agree, however, do you think that Jesus would have agreed with the Saduccees?

Since the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, I hardly think that a man who could raise the dead would agree with them.

As far as the Pharisees taught from God's word, Jesus said to listen to them, but he also demonstrated that they were hypocrites for not keeping the spirit of the law themselves. (Matthew 23:2-4)

Jesus is affirming Torah, here, not abolishing it.

Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, not abolish it. One could not transgress any teaching of the Christ without breaking one or the other of the two Commandments upon which the Law was based.

The Sabbath is obviously redemptive// Sunday, the Christian Sabbath. That being said it may not be 'necessary'. Adherence is going to vary there, and always has.

Can you tell me why "the Church" shifted the Sabbath to Sunday when the 7th day was always Saturday?
Can you also show me where Christians were ever told to observe a Sabbath?

 

[Desert Snake]

Can you tell me why "the Church" shifted the Sabbath to Sunday when the 7th day was always Saturday?
Can you also show me where Christians were ever told to observe a Sabbath?

We know of redemptive value from inference, and by de facto value via the 10 Commandments. Do you have, to observe Sabbath? Most likely not, and interestingly, this seems to have always been the case. This doesn't mean that some won't observe the Sabbath, and that it has no value.


The ''seventh day'', according to the Calendar, has nothing to do with day of Rest/Sabbath. //ie it's arbitrary.

When 'our' /Jesus adherents Sabbath was set, it simply became codified/customary.

 

[Deeje]

We know of redemptive value from inference, and by de facto value via the 10 Commandments. Do you have, to observe Sabbath? Most likely not, and interestingly, this seems to have always been the case. This doesn't mean that some won't observe the Sabbath, and that it has no value.

When the circumcision issue arose in the first century, we see that the Jewish Christians wanted to impose Jewish law on Gentile believers and the discussions were getting heated and causing divisions. The apostles and older men in Jerusalem met to solve this dilemma with prayer for God's direction and attention to the scriptures. There was to be no imposition of Jewish law on Gentiles except in areas where the sanctity of blood and immorality were concerned, so the only things that were incumbent on Gentiles and in fact all Christians, was this....

Acts 15:28-29:
“For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”

So, no circumcision, no Sabbath, no festivals, and no sacrifices were mentioned, just the sanctity of blood, the consuming of unbled flesh and sexual immorality....things that were common in pagan Gentile life.

The ''seventh day'', according to the Calendar, has nothing to do with day of Rest/Sabbath. //ie it's arbitrary.

It was mandatory for Jews to observe the Sabbath from the day the Law was given to Israel just after their release from Egypt. The manna was provided to feed the entire nation for the duration of their 40 year sojourn in the wilderness and they had to collect it fresh every day, otherwise it went rotten. On the sixth day, a double supply was given and it kept fresh for consumption on the Sabbath so that the Israelites did not have to work to collect it. Israel was in no doubt about the day of the Sabbath, and how important it was for Jews to see the importance of it.

Exodus 20:8-11:
“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy."

The 7th day has always been Saturday on the Gregorian calendar. And since Christians were under no obligation to keep Sabbath, why the change to Sunday?

When 'our' /Jesus adherents Sabbath was set, it simply became codified/customary.

It is clear from the scriptures that literal observance of Sabbath days and years was not a part of first-century Christianity. It was not until 321 C.E. that Constantine decreed Sunday to be a day of rest for all but the farmers.
Why Sunday? In Latin it is "dies Solis", an old title associated with astrology and sun worship, not "Sabbatum" [Sabbath] or "dies Domini" [Lord’s day] so what we have is a complete shift in weakened Christian worship to a day where the Romans honored their own god. This is how a pagan Emperor took Roman sun worship and "fused" it with apostate Christianity. What resulted was a far cry from what Jesus and his apostles taught. The "weeds" of Jesus parable had well and truly taken over the "field". They have been growing ever since.

The Reformation did not solve the problem, but simply fractured Christianity into ever more division without removing the all of the false doctrines that Catholicism had introduced centuries before.

 

[Bible Guy]

Jesus clearly expects us to CONTINUE to obey the Torah of Moses, lest we be called LEAST in the forthcoming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

Those who desire eternal life (Lk. 10:25) are expected to obey LAW (Lk. 10:26-28).

John expects us to OBEY law (1 Jn. 5:3).

Paul expects us to OBEY law (1 Cor. 7:19).

Love for God (Dt. 6:4-5) entails obedience to ALL Torah commands (Dt. 6:25).

 

[Desert Snake]

It was mandatory for Jews to observe the Sabbath from the day the Law was given to Israel just after their release from Egypt. The manna was provided to feed the entire nation for the duration of their 40 year sojourn in the wilderness and they had to collect it fresh every day, otherwise it went rotten. On the sixth day, a double supply was given and it kept fresh for consumption on the Sabbath so that the Israelites did not have to work to collect it. Israel was in no doubt about the day of the Sabbath, and how important it was for Jews to see the importance of it.

Exodus 20:8-11:
“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy."

The 7th day has always been Saturday on the Gregorian calendar. And since Christians were under no obligation to keep Sabbath, why the change to Sunday?

Judaism chose 'Saturday' in accordance with the /western Calendar, not Christianity. There is no reason for Christians to follow that 'example'...it is puzzling why you seem to think they should have. I'm not sure what you mean when you say 'the seventh day was always on Saturday, either... The years do not conform/ start of/, to this, hence there is no actual purpose/usage to that...

It is clear from the scriptures that literal observance of Sabbath days and years was not a part of first-century Christianity. It was not until 321 C.E. that Constantine decreed Sunday to be a day of rest for all but the farmers.
Why Sunday? In Latin it is "dies Solis", an old title associated with astrology and sun worship, not "Sabbatum" [Sabbath] or "dies Domini" [Lord’s day] so what we have is a complete shift in weakened Christian worship to a day where the Romans honored their own god. This is how a pagan Emperor took Roman sun worship and "fused" it with apostate Christianity.

This is arbitrary, as I already noted. Christians are not obligated keep the same Sabbath/day of Rest, as Judaism.

 

[Deeje]

Judaism chose 'Saturday' in accordance with the /western Calendar, not Christianity.

Actually, God chose the Sabbath, not the Jews. Since he determined what day the manna was supplied in double amount so that the Sabbath rest day could be observed in the wilderness, it was not in question which day the Sabbath fell on. It is the day that corresponds with our Saturday and the manna failed appear on that day for 40 years.

There is no reason for Christians to follow that 'example'...it is puzzling why you seem to think they should have. I'm not sure what you mean when you say 'the seventh day was always on Saturday, either...

The years do not conform/ start of/, to this, hence there is no actual purpose/usage to that...

Since the whole Jewish system revolved around their worship, it was organized and orderly. The time for festivals was clearly indicated with all instructions laid out as to what they needed to do and when they needed to do it.

Sabbath years as well as weekly Sabbaths were observed in Israel. I am puzzled that you think a Christian "Sabbath" even belongs in Christian worship.

This is arbitrary, as I already noted. Christians are not obligated keep the same Sabbath/day of Rest, as Judaism.

Christians are not obligated to keep a Sabbath, period.

The move to observe a Sabbath or holy day on Sunday has already been explained. Since "Sol Invictus" ("Unconquered Sun") was worshipped in Rome, sun worship in the RCC is as visible today was it was when Constantine first decreed it.

The monstrance and the halos among other images are all related to sun worship.

The Babylonian sun wheel in St Peter's Square...and the pagan obelisk that was transported from Egypt representing the sun god Ra. (Obelisks are also known to be phallic symbols.)

The shape of the wafer is the shape of the sun.

Nothing introduced by the RCC is Christian....especially not Sunday as a Sabbath.

 

[Desert Snake]

Since the whole Jewish system revolved around their worship, it was organized and orderly. The time for festivals was clearly indicated with all instructions laid out as to what they needed to do and when they needed to do it.

Sabbath years as well as weekly Sabbaths were observed in Israel. I am puzzled that you think a Christian "Sabbath" even belongs in Christian worship.

Why not, Deeje? I'm not practicing Judaism. Your ramblings about the ''Sabbath'' in Judaism, aren't even relevant, considering that you stated, Christians should not even observe /any Sabbath.

Christians are not obligated to keep a Sabbath, period.

Deeje , I said, it was probably not obligatory, yet obviously has redemptive value, via Scriptural inference.

The move to observe a Sabbath or holy day on Sunday has already been explained. Since "Sol Invictus" ("Unconquered Sun") was worshipped in Rome, sun worship in the RCC is as visible today was it was when Constantine first decreed it.

Perhaps you don't realize that the Judaism adherence to 'saturday', is arbitrary, because it isn't the Jewish Calendar; and actually Saturday, Deeje, is related to Saturnalia, for example.
Do you celebrate saturnalia?

 

[Thief]

The Biblical verses state outright that man was made in...a day? That isn't evolution.

a day in the life of God is like unto a thousand years

it's written somewhere that way

and you might note.....like unto....does not give exact measure

 

[Desert Snake]

We use an inference. The Genesis text, gives literal 'days'. This is extremely quickly, not vague as to time ''inference''. Some myth creation tales, aren't this explicit. You are basically ignoring the actual inference, for your own theory.

 

[Thief]

Jesus clearly expects us to CONTINUE to obey the Torah of Moses, lest we be called LEAST in the forthcoming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

Those who desire eternal life (Lk. 10:25) are expected to obey LAW (Lk. 10:26-28).

John expects us to OBEY law (1 Jn. 5:3).

Paul expects us to OBEY law (1 Cor. 7:19).

Love for God (Dt. 6:4-5) entails obedience to ALL Torah commands (Dt. 6:25).

was it not Paul that wrote against the .....'sin law'....?
and was it not Jesus that taught to forgive sin?

 

[Thief]

We use an inference. The Genesis text, gives literal 'days'. This is extremely quickly, not vague as to time ''inference''. Some myth creation tales, aren't this explicit. You are basically ignoring the actual inference, for your own theory.

not at all.....
I happen to believe .....time does not exist

when anyone else should respond as if it does.......

 

[Desert Snake]

You can't wear a watch without contradicting your own position... you do realize, that, right?

 

[Thief]

You can't wear a watch without contradicting your own position... you do realize, that, right?

measurement is an everyday practice

that doesn't mean time is a substance or a force

and hasn't this topic digressed enough already?
time to go back to topic

 

[Desert Snake]

Yes, you have taken this discussion off course, agreed.

 

[Thief]

and so I reiterate.....

was it not Paul that wrote against the .....'sin law'....?
and was it not Jesus that taught to forgive sin?

 

[Bible Guy]

was it not Paul that wrote against the .....'sin law'....?
and was it not Jesus that taught to forgive sin?

Not entirely sure what (precisely) you have in mind by the term "sin law".

But regarding Paul and sin, this argument is clearly supported by Paul's writings in Biblical Scripture:

1. Paul taught that sin is violation of law (Rom. 3:20;7:7).
2. Paul taught that we should not sin (Rom. 6:1-2,15).
3. Paul taught that we should not violate the law (from 1 and 2).
4. Paul taught that we should obey the law (from 3).

Therefore, Paul taught that Christians (disciples of Jesus Christ) should obey the law (i.e., the Law of Moses).

Most Christians are unaware of this.


Now, you ask: "..was it not Jesus that taught to forgive sin?"

My response: Yes, we should forgive other's sins against us if they repent (Lk. 17:4).

In fact, you can imitate Jesus' example (1 Jn. 2:6; Lk. 6:40) and forgive others (even if they have not repented) when they are simply acting ignorantly (Lk. 23:34).

And, Jesus taught that we should pray to be forgiven of sins (Lk. 11:4).

But then, it follows that Jesus taught that it is bad to sin (that's why we need to pray to be forgiven).

But again, "sin = violation of law".

Therefore, Jesus' opposition to sin entails his opposition to violation of law.

We conclude that Jesus (like Paul) likewise taught that we should obey law (i.e., obey the written Law of Moses).

Do you agree?

 

[Thief]

Not entirely sure what (precisely) you have in mind by the term "sin law".

But regarding Paul and sin, this argument is clearly supported by Paul's writings in Biblical Scripture:

1. Paul taught that sin is violation of law (Rom. 3:20;7:7).
2. Paul taught that we should not sin (Rom. 6:1-2,15).
3. Paul taught that we should not violate the law (from 1 and 2).
4. Paul taught that we should obey the law (from 3).

Therefore, Paul taught that Christians (disciples of Jesus Christ) should obey the law (i.e., the Law of Moses).

Most Christians are unaware of this.


Now, you ask: "..was it not Jesus that taught to forgive sin?"

My response: Yes, we should forgive other's sins against us if they repent (Lk. 17:4).

In fact, you can imitate Jesus' example (1 Jn. 2:6; Lk. 6:40) and forgive others (even if they have not repented) when they are simply acting ignorantly (Lk. 23:34).

And, Jesus taught that we should pray to be forgiven of sins (Lk. 11:4).

But then, it follows that Jesus taught that it is bad to sin (that's why we need to pray to be forgiven).

But again, "sin = violation of law".

Therefore, Jesus' opposition to sin entails his opposition to violation of law.

We conclude that Jesus (like Paul) likewise taught that we should obey law (i.e., obey the written Law of Moses).

Do you agree?

not entirely.

I note first.....Saul never met Jesus of Nazareth

and a name change didn't take away his Roman citizenship

Paul wrote about half of what we now call the New Testament
most of that was in the form of letters sent to various followings

leaning more to the Carpenter as I do......
the parables are all that we need for instruction of spirit
and the law....
Do unto others as you would have it done unto you
is all the law required

simply stated.....
it will be done unto you as you did unto others

it is that double edged sword mentioned in Revelation

 

[Thief]

if I have errored in the previous post......by all means...
post your rebuttal

 

[Rick B]

Most of those posting here reject the "one day in seven" day of rest given at creation, codified at Sinai and practiced in the N.T. The 4th Commandment to set apart one day in seven to rest and worship God also included six days of labor. Are those opposed reject that part as well? What about any of the other Ten? Will you discard any of those? The Ten Commandments, also known as the moral law, is considered Biblically and historically as a distinct unit. As James 2:10 says if you break one you are guilty of breaking all. When God gave the command to rest one day in seven at creation it was for all mankind. At Sinai positive laws were added to it unique to His special, elect people, Israel, alone. With the finished work of Christ the positive laws particular to the nation of Israel were abolished but not the moral law of God written on the conscience of mankind at creation. These are permanent and perpetually binding on all. These are summarized in the Ten Words. The fact of a change of day does not affect the one day in seven principle, but honors the great work of the Redeemer in giving spiritual rest to His elect children - all believers, Jews and Gentiles alike. The Christian Sabbath. The Lord's Day.