All this transgender bathroom BS

[ADigitalArtist]

I'm sorry, I've never seen a treatment for phantom limbs that encourages belief that your limb still exists.

You've probably never seen treatment for it at all. But regardless, when treating with surgical attachment or prosthetic they're treating the dysphoria by bringing the body in alignment with the brain's expectations. This has the effect of removing the distress.

Whaddayaknow, that's exactly how sex reassignment treatments for dysphoria works too.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It must be nice not to have to care about these things. How privileged you are, how lucky you are to be "normal" in the eyes of society.

I don't have the time or energy to fret over every person in the world who has it worse than me in some way.

I also don't have the time and energy to get indignant over every person in the world who has it better than me in some way.

I suppose some people have a lot more time and energy than I do, though.

 

[Spiderman]

Methinks some folks may be spending a wee too much time listening to sensationalist news outlets, and/or giving a wee bit too much weight to the voices of a few vocal fools. The only reason this is even on my radar is because, as @Kilgore Trout , people keep bringing it up, which honestly confuses the potatoes out of me. I haven't participated in any of the conversations about this, either on the forums, or in the non-forum life. Until now, because maybe I'll be that voice that reminds people that noise is not the same as signal. There are good reasons why I ignore mainstream media outlets; it is a lot of noise, and barely any signal.

Amen! Wish I had the same maturity and self-control

 

[1137]

Back to the subjective part.

We all have some form of dislikes/hate/disgusts of our body, persona, situations... That's being human. So maybe the fix to such "dislikes" is to simply be who you want to be? Do what you want to do? Obviously, this won't work in all situations. But maybe it will work for transexuals.

I hated the fact that I was fat when I was younger. So, I worked out and got skinny. Stupid argument, sure. But the point is, it's subjective.

You brought a case study in another thread correlating post gender-change operations and suicide rate. I read that article a month ago. I think that would have been fair to assert if that same research can be reproduced by different organizations, especially from organizations that are not biased. If this can proven 100% true, then there should be a huge disclaimer to the side effects of such procedures. But in the end, as I believe in choice and freedom, I would not prevent the individual from doing what they want as long as it is no danger to me or society.

Very well put. I also have no intent on stopping people from transitioning. However, it's not psychology. People can do what they want to themselves, but psychology is supposed to try and address a disorder, not encourage it, end of story. Changing your physical gender is not a psychological move, it's medical/cosmetic. It's not a counselors place to be sending transgender individuals off to an operation. We should address the issue, and if the client still desires the change send them on their way to a different kind of doctor.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I never said we shouldn't allow people to be trans... people can be who they want to be, dress how they want, take what they want. In fact, most distress I've seen from trans people is due to others, not because of their own self image.

You have an odd way of showing it by bringing up and article from someone who practiced decades ago when the standards are different that states it's not a good practice, and how you keep bringing up suicide and try to compare it to things that it's not comparable to. Even a phantom limb is not comparable, because clearly the arm isn't there (at least until we have Star Wars-like transplants), and encouraging the person to pretend the arm is their is denial and is going to cause the person more harm than good. And that is where all of your comparisons fail, because transsexuals show improvement, not detriment, when they transition. With all of your comparisons, the patient would decline if you let them be.

 

[1137]

You've probably never seen treatment for it at all. But regardless, when treating with surgical attachment or prosthetic they're treating the dysphoria by bringing the body in alignment with the brain's expectations. This has the effect of removing the distress.

Whaddayaknow, that's exactly how sex reassignment treatments for dysphoria works too.

Sexual reassignment is comparatively saying "you're right, your arm is still there and hurts". Me, I have a Penis. This makes me male. I can wear dresses, identify with female figures, really anything I want to do. But I'm still guy. People can make fun of me and cause distress, but the proper course is to educate them rather than give in and get a sex change. Male and female are biological facts, just because our culture gives into gender roles doesn't mean you have to be a certain sex to act a certain way. But distress can also be caused internally, such as hating the fact that I'm male. This is psychological dysfunction because fact is I AM a male, and my self image is FALSE.

It's like depression. Sure those depressed feelings are real, they even have a physiological basis. This doesn't mean I should commit suicide just cause I feel like it.

 

[1137]

You have an odd way of showing it by bringing up and article from someone who practiced decades ago when the standards are different that states it's not a good practice, and how you keep bringing up suicide and try to compare it to things that it's not comparable to. Even a phantom limb is not comparable, because clearly the arm isn't there (at least until we have Star Wars-like transplants), and encouraging the person to pretend the arm is their is denial and is going to cause the person more harm than good. And that is where all of your comparisons fail, because transsexuals show improvement, not detriment, when they transition. With all of your comparisons, the patient would decline if you let them be.

Again, the study wasn't even done bathe writer of the article, and was concluded in 2003. I'm sorry,but I care when there's a 20X increase in suicide due to treatment. That's more harm than good, clear as day, end of story. I'm fine with transgender surgery, it's your choice. But a psychologist is there to help people, not encourage false self images. If you want to use heroin that's your choice. If you want to beat your child that's your choice. If you want to cut yourself that's your choice. If you want to commit suicide that's your choice. If you want to dress as a video game character every day that's your choice. This doesn't mean it's the role of the psychologist to support any of these things.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm sorry,but I care when there's a 20X increase in suicide due to treatment.

And as you keep ignoring, when you compare pre-op groups to post-op groups, the suicide rate is considerably lower for the post-op group. There is absolutely nothing about transitioning that turns transsexuals suicidal. Rather, to contrary, it puts an already high risk group at a much lower rate. And when the suicides are examined, what is a very common trend is either preexisting mood disorders and/or a failed transition, which is defined as a lack of support, a lack of acceptance, and failure to be assimilated as their identified sex. It's not like transitioning makes someone suicidal because chances are good they at least thought about it before they transitioned. And although you go on about this 20x higher suicide rate, you're ignoring the group that has an improved quality of like, which is higher than 90% in some studies. 90%! That means with these studies, a overwhelming majority treated went from depressed, anxious, and most likely suicidal to being happy in life and able to enjoy it.
I certainly hope you never have any patients who are transgender because your ways of thinking are destructive for them. When you're prepared to fork over a ton of money, endure hours of excruciating hair removal, multiple surgeries, and completely, totally, and entirely end on life to begin another one, do you really think that person is at all content, and ever can be content, living as their birth sex?

But a psychologist is there to help people, not encourage false self images. If you want to use heroin that's your choice. If you want to beat your child that's your choice. If you want to cut yourself that's your choice. If you want to commit suicide that's your choice. If you want to dress as a video game character every day that's your choice. This doesn't mean it's the role of the psychologist to support any of these things.

The role of psychology is to help people improve themselves. Many transsexuals would rather eat a bullet than live as their birth sex. With a support group, transitioning, and acceptance, they aren't so willing to go off themselves.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Sexual reassignment is comparatively saying "you're right, your arm is still there and hurts".

No, it isn't. It's treating the disassociation which is causing the distress. 'I still feel the sensation.' 'Ok let's treat the sensation by bridging the gap between your body and your mental expectation through VR simulation, mirror treatment and prosthetics.'
Sex reassignment is a tried and proven treatment for dysphoria which is not caused by outside people. Sure the non-acceptance compounds the distress, but sex assignment isn't about pleasing others or avoiding bullying.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Even a phantom limb is not comparable, because clearly the arm isn't there (at least until we have Star Wars-like transplants), and encouraging the person to pretend the arm is their is denial and is going to cause the person more harm than good.

I'm using phantom limb as an example because it's an example of body dysphoria. The limb, like the genitals prior to transition aren't there. But the transition (sexual or prosthetic) is to treat the disassociation between mind and body in a way that's shown to curb the disassociation and improve mental health.

 

[1137]

I'm not interested anymore. I believe people can do what they want to themselves so the debate is pointless. This doesn't mean I will give into postmodernism in my field, and I will continue trying to address, rather than encourage, delusional thought.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm not interested anymore. I believe people can do what they want to themselves so the debate is pointless. This doesn't mean I will give into postmodernism in my field, and I will continue trying to address, rather than encourage, delusional thought.

You sure have a funny way of showing that you're not interested, since you keep dragging your bigoted, ignorant nonsense out for the board to see. Then you run away when you get your *** handed to you in the argument. You simply have no idea what you're talking about. Perhaps you should consider a different field for a career. I feel bad for whoever ends up being a client of yours.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This doesn't mean I will give into postmodernism in my field, and I will continue trying to address, rather than encourage, delusional thought.

It's not "encouraging post modernism" is the field. All you've presented a statistics that don't include the whole picture and made comparisons that aren't valid. You've already mentioned the societal issues, and that is pretty much the reason transsexuals kill themselves. It's not because they transitioned and regretted it, it's because people treat them like ****. But, as a newer study does show, one that looks at transsexual youth, they do not have the same problems adults do, and they started young enough to have a more normal puberty of the sex they identify as, and they pretty much look and act indistinguishable from cis-born people, and their lives are not nearly as hard.
Why we're at it, let's not encourage gay people to be gay, because that is a disorder according to some. Let's tell people they can't engage in the "kinky" and "dark" stuff sexually because that's a disorder to some, and because tradition apparently knows best let's make it official again that only women suffer hysteria.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Really? Cause my clients couldn't be more thankful of our services, and all but one is extremely successful in our services. You're a ****ing idiot Frank. A little child who can't even pick a religion. You and I are finished. Go change your mind a couple thousand more times.

That says nothing about your point that letting transsexuals is a destructive postmodernism run amok. And even if you do treat them and don't let them transition and have success, you're one clinic. I read one book where the author was citing that transsexuals have a higher intelligence based on how apparently the transsexuals she treats in her office all have an above average IQ. But you don't hear me referring to that because I've never read it a second time.

You really have no business working in the mental health field since you need treatment, yourself.

That's really not very good grounds for someone not practicing. Of course it would depend on what someone is being treated for, but being treated alone shouldn't be grounds for not working in the field.
Denying what study-after-study-after-study-after-study has found, on the other hand, that's another issue of itself. Transsexuals are indeed happier after transitioning, and it's not even a weird cultish sort of happiness where everyone is saying everything is just fine and dandy.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That's really not very good grounds for someone not practicing. Of course it would depend on what someone is being treated for, but being treated alone shouldn't be grounds for not working in the field.

I didn't mean for it to come off that way. Should've put it better. Him and I just have a bit of a history, let's say. Now I'll leave it at that.

 

[gnomon]

I keep seeing a lot of topics about this. No one really gets what's going on, so here I'm going to break it down.

For those who want a real example of issues important to trans people: http://www.transequality.org/issues

lol no bathrooms on it. okay now back to my topic...

1. Transgender people have been using the bathrooms they want since forever. Sometimes it caused them trouble, but often it doesn't. Only really when transitioning.

2. The only reason this is an issue now is the media and political machine wants a dividing issue after gay marriage won. If transgender was really a real issue we would be talking about healthcare. I'm sick of seeing transgender people used as pawns in a political dance full of lies. The GOP is the worst about this.

3. It seems no one even really seems to understand what being transgender is in any of these discussions. It's not a mental illness, a male to female isn't a "boy" pretending to be a girl. And a FtM isn't a girl pretending to be a boy. It's been medically and scientifically documented for a long time that transgender/transexualism is a real thing.

4. No, no one is going to pretend to be transgender to spy on anyone. Never happened, never will. Someone appearing as the other sex transgender or not will always be heavily scrutinized if they enter a bathroom of the other sex, and in some cases the same sex if they look too butch or effeminate.

5. No, there is no laws preventing anyone from using any bathroom. Well, some states technically had it illegal even post surgery until recently. But nothing was ever enforced so far as I'm aware.

6. Saying only people who've had surgery can go to the bathroom assigned to their gender isn't really fair or really address anything. First off many people can't afford surgery and even FtM don't really have much viable SRS (sexual reassignment surgery). So you are basically saying "**** you" to any FtM. Also there isn't one "surgery" there are multiple ones. Now if you said they had be transitioning (HRT or not) to go into one, that actually makes some sense as it shows the person is really transgender but again no one was ever really posed as transgender to spy on anyone.

7. And no Obama did *not* give an executive order on bathrooms at schools. What *really* happened is the administration told schools that if they continued to discriminate by not allowing transitioning transgender people to use the bathroom of their identified gender they would risk loosing some of their federal funding aid.

8. But back to the main thing, like many things, you don't care about the bathroom issue. If you did all of you would of been raising hell about this years ago. It's always happened. None of you cared. And none of you really care about transgender people. This is all a pet issue. Transgender people have been using bathrooms for years. Sometimes they get beat up, sometimes worse and often nothing.

9. But you know what? Those who really care... actually want to improve the worst parts of transgender people's lives. Access to healthcare, job and housing discrimination, really high rates of homelessness, suicide, and hate crime violence. People make their lives hell and make them not even human, a joke, something that is to be laughed and mocked. Those who don't do this patronize and act like they are noble just for treating them like decent human beings. And all so many see them as is nothing more than their body. Either from the fetish chasers or to all the people who won't shut the **** up and stop asking questions about one's private parts. It's really odd how that's rude in any other situation but the moment they are trans everything is off the table. I've heard from some transgender people about how when someone learns that they are trans sometimes people attempt to grope or feel for body parts or to see if breasts ect other stuff is 'real'. Particularly cops.

10. Violence against transgender people are at an all time high, NONE OF YOU ON THIS FORUM ARE TALKING ABOUT THAT. Every topic I see about transgender people is about this stupid partisan bathroom issue and not even the aspect where it matters like violence or the high UTI rate due to fear of using public restrooms. No just wanting to use them not even the ramifications of the issue for trans folk.

11. Right well half the topics I see anyway is about how so and so is really a boy or so and so is really a girl and will violate the privacy of your kids. Well what about that kid's privacy too? really public restrooms are not totally private being public, and it's just as easy to argue that the trans kids privacy would be just as violated putting them in the other locker/restroom.

12. I Just... get so angry. This isn't even an honest conversation. It's all shrouded in political rivalry. Transgender people are just the backdrop of the culture war... and most in the conversation are not even on transgender people's side... they are on their own side. Soundbite politics are easier than really wanting serious change. The difference here is that people are dying because of it.

http://brandongaille.com/15-profound-transgender-hate-crime-statistics/
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/13/transgender-homicide-victims-us-has-hit-historic-high
http://www.advocate.com/crime/2015/06/09/anti-lgbt-violence-down-anti-trans-hate-crimes

While I found some of your points maybe a bit over the top.........okay maybe just one.....

Overall bravo.

And I tried really hard to argue against those points but after numerous deletes and edits........bravo and be angry.

 

[gnomon]

Okay......quick explanation needed......

I just liked this post and it called me a "greased Scotsman"........

What is this new......."frubal".........system?

edit: Because maybe I'm a chaffed Scotsman!

 

[Acim]

1. Transgender people have been using the bathrooms they want since forever. Sometimes it caused them trouble, but often it doesn't. Only really when transitioning.

Is there any possible disagreement by anyone on this?

2. The only reason this is an issue now is the media and political machine wants a dividing issue after gay marriage won. If transgender was really a real issue we would be talking about healthcare. I'm sick of seeing transgender people used as pawns in a political dance full of lies. The GOP is the worst about this.

I see it as a wedge issue planted by progressive. Honestly, until your last sentence, that's where I thought you were going with this. If the Left is truly on the side of transgender rights why is it only being brought up in 2016 as a national concern?

3. It seems no one even really seems to understand what being transgender is in any of these discussions. It's not a mental illness, a male to female isn't a "boy" pretending to be a girl. And a FtM isn't a girl pretending to be a boy. It's been medically and scientifically documented for a long time that transgender/transexualism is a real thing.

I've claimed at least twice in recent weeks on RF that it is clearly not a mental illness. I understand it to be thousands of years old. Still there are plenty of people in society who filter it as a psychological illness needing correction, so I won't deny that. I think that sucks, but this is far from the only issue where people who are taken so aback to something consider it an illness and their brand of psychological/spiritual correction is seemingly the answer to the problems they find to be abnormal.

4. No, no one is going to pretend to be transgender to spy on anyone. Never happened, never will. Someone appearing as the other sex transgender or not will always be heavily scrutinized if they enter a bathroom of the other sex, and in some cases the same sex if they look too butch or effeminate.

I beg to differ on this one. I feel it has already happened and given the way the Left or those not thinking critically through what's being suggested as policy going forward, I think it will be tested. I think it will occur in various degrees of seriousness from someone blatantly abusing the situation/policy to try and spy, get busted and get shunned by pretty much everyone. And cases where it isn't so clear if it is spying or someone is identifying as the other gender but is essentially such a loner type that they just assumed it was okay given the new policy.

5. No, there is no laws preventing anyone from using any bathroom. Well, some states technically had it illegal even post surgery until recently. But nothing was ever enforced so far as I'm aware.

The bathroom thing is just part of the current discussion. Essentially any place in a (public) school (for persons that are minors) that have segregate areas will be facing mini-tests going forward. I generally think the tests are a good thing, but not sure if there are people who will think through the issues critically or side with whatever group looks to shun certain people and ask questions (maybe) later. Thus, I think it will be played as a wedge issue for awhile, or at least until mid November 2016.

6. Saying only people who've had surgery can go to the bathroom assigned to their gender isn't really fair or really address anything. First off many people can't afford surgery and even FtM don't really have much viable SRS (sexual reassignment surgery). So you are basically saying "**** you" to any FtM. Also there isn't one "surgery" there are multiple ones. Now if you said they had be transitioning (HRT or not) to go into one, that actually makes some sense as it shows the person is really transgender but again no one was ever really posed as transgender to spy on anyone.

And I would say the invitation to spy hasn't been as open as it either is now or could be in a very short time. I get that a transgender person is not going into facilities to spy (anymore than anyone else), but the policy being called forth is essentially an **** you to the way gender segregation has worked historically.

7. And no Obama did *not* give an executive order on bathrooms at schools. What *really* happened is the administration told schools that if they continued to discriminate by not allowing transitioning transgender people to use the bathroom of their identified gender they would risk loosing some of their federal funding aid.

So, not an executive order, just executive blackmail, or another version of **** you.

8. But back to the main thing, like many things, you don't care about the bathroom issue. If you did all of you would of been raising hell about this years ago. It's always happened. None of you cared. And none of you really care about transgender people. This is all a pet issue. Transgender people have been using bathrooms for years. Sometimes they get beat up, sometimes worse and often nothing.

Lot of passive aggressive words there. IMO, it ought to be directed squarely to progressives if somehow that aspect of national politics is deemed in any way helpful to transgender rights.

9. But you know what? Those who really care... actually want to improve the worst parts of transgender people's lives. Access to healthcare, job and housing discrimination, really high rates of homelessness, suicide, and hate crime violence. People make their lives hell and make them not even human, a joke, something that is to be laughed and mocked. Those who don't do this patronize and act like they are noble just for treating them like decent human beings. And all so many see them as is nothing more than their body. Either from the fetish chasers or to all the people who won't shut the **** up and stop asking questions about one's private parts. It's really odd how that's rude in any other situation but the moment they are trans everything is off the table. I've heard from some transgender people about how when someone learns that they are trans sometimes people attempt to grope or feel for body parts or to see if breasts ect other stuff is 'real'. Particularly cops.

Like almost all things the Left does, if they can make it about kids (or the future), make it a wedge issue, and get political mileage out of it, they will. When the latest election is over, then the pawns can go back to whatever it is they were doing before the Left pretended to be concerned to get their vote. Sure the Right has enough persons who are nearly proud to be practicing ugly hateful discrimination, but at least they're consistent nor seeking to make this a big todo. Others on the Right are likely genuinely sympathetic willing to support (i.e. libertarian types) but not if it means growing government in a vain or questionable effort to help.

Also, this is a tricky issue. And made more complex because of ongoing desire for segregation (of gender) and black and white thinking of what it means to be male/female. I honestly don't see transgender people as immune from that, but are at the center of that which is challenging the traditional normative values. IMO, that challenge is long overdue, and is hardly about transgender people alone. Not like transgender people are the only people in society right now facing the problems you are citing as problems. More like there is political spotlight on their plight, and it is being used as a wedge issue, and one side (the Left) will use the issue as reason to grow government. Blackmailing to get their way, if need be.

10. Violence against transgender people are at an all time high, NONE OF YOU ON THIS FORUM ARE TALKING ABOUT THAT. Every topic I see about transgender people is about this stupid partisan bathroom issue and not even the aspect where it matters like violence or the high UTI rate due to fear of using public restrooms. No just wanting to use them not even the ramifications of the issue for trans folk.

You think when the Left invokes a wedge issue in the way they do that violence isn't going to result? Welcome to (progressive) America.

11. Right well half the topics I see anyway is about how so and so is really a boy or so and so is really a girl and will violate the privacy of your kids. Well what about that kid's privacy too? really public restrooms are not totally private being public, and it's just as easy to argue that the trans kids privacy would be just as violated putting them in the other locker/restroom.

Thus a tricky issue. If any decision is made, it will likely have someone framing it as a big **** you to their side unless all their stipulations are upheld as the one and only righteous way to understand the issue.

12. I Just... get so angry. This isn't even an honest conversation. It's all shrouded in political rivalry. Transgender people are just the backdrop of the culture war... and most in the conversation are not even on transgender people's side... they are on their own side. Soundbite politics are easier than really wanting serious change. The difference here is that people are dying because of it.

http://brandongaille.com/15-profound-transgender-hate-crime-statistics/
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/13/transgender-homicide-victims-us-has-hit-historic-high
http://www.advocate.com/crime/2015/06/09/anti-lgbt-violence-down-anti-trans-hate-crimes

I'll admit to shrouding it in political rivalry. I think the Left is doing a huge disservice to transgender people and find it blatantly obvious that it is what they are doing. I don't see a way around 'being on one's own side' while having any discussion, much less political. Either people in that discussion consider transgender people as on neither side / both sides, or they want to pander to their concerns as dictated by presidential decree and claim they are the only party fighting for transgender rights. IMO, a libertarian type is going to treat a transgender person as person first, and advocate the same as they would for all free people. Whereas others (could be Left or Right) are going to want to see the transgender first and the person part as something that may or may not matter unless you agree to the political/spiritual outlook they have.

Like all issues, it kinda sucks to be told you don't care or aren't being honest in your conversation or are whatever it is to justify a distance regardless of what you say. But is how identity politics works and why wedge issues continue to be effective every 4 years. I'm just surprised that there are intelligent members of any identity group that fall for the Left's pandering.

 

[Acim]

My example holds. Caring for patients doesn't involve giving into their delusion. I'm not going to encourage my bipolar patient to jump off the roof when she manically thinks she can fly, or to go on a shopping spree and spend all her money.

I'm unclear why you see transgender people as having a disorder.

But my cynical side wishes to say that we do encourage delusional thinking in monogamous types by instituting righteousness of marriage around their delusion. Knowing full well that 50% of them will likely not make it a life long commitment. How do you think we can correct that 'disorder?' By continuing to pretend it isn't a disorder? Or continuing to pretend that this time really does mean, until death do us part?

 

[Acim]

Sexual reassignment is comparatively saying "you're right, your arm is still there and hurts". Me, I have a Penis. This makes me male. I can wear dresses, identify with female figures, really anything I want to do. But I'm still guy. People can make fun of me and cause distress, but the proper course is to educate them rather than give in and get a sex change. Male and female are biological facts, just because our culture gives into gender roles doesn't mean you have to be a certain sex to act a certain way.

I think the latter statement (in last sentence) is where you are expressing the disorder, which I read as cultural disorder. Male and female may be biological facts, but they are clearly not psychological facts. There is either very little or nothing in biology that is suggesting personality traits for male and female, while there is in culture (constantly). Going strictly with biology, there would be no reason for segregating bathrooms, and the fact that there are many unisex restrooms that function fine, means there's not a reason for the segregation OTHER THAN the cultural and psychological norms that have been ingrained for a fairly long time. Having zero to do with biological facts, and everything to do with psychological / cultural norms / arguably disorder(s).

But distress can also be caused internally, such as hating the fact that I'm male. This is psychological dysfunction because fact is I AM a male, and my self image is FALSE.

I see the dysfunction you are raising here is again on society foremost. The self image for what it means to be male would be based on societal norms. Those may be disorderly and in disaccord with whatever any individual is currently experiencing.

It's like depression. Sure those depressed feelings are real, they even have a physiological basis. This doesn't mean I should commit suicide just cause I feel like it.

I quoted your (two) post(s) because it is example of the psychological disorder stigma that is associated with transgender persons. In your first post that I quoted, you never really specified it. Even if this post, I'd rather take to task what you are conveying because you aren't actually citing the disorder, not the psychological one. If anything, you are noting that it is a cultural disorder.

And as one that wrote a first post contending that we ought not to just simply change the policy over willy nilly, I am now adding to that by saying the cultural disorder is so great that to assume there will be less problems I think is foolish. It is open invitation to test the cultural disorder in ways that we perhaps have never seen before, but very easily could because of how tricky the issue is.

With the other psychological conditions you brought up, there is either a condition that is undesired or if it is desired (i.e. heroin addict who believes they can't function without heroin), the help part will be less effective if the person doesn't seek the change foremost for themselves. With the transgender issue, both of those are present, but the cultural disorder is working against that desire for change, desire to correct the inherent problem they are experiencing. So, really the inverse of what psychological counseling does when faced with a problem. With some of the other conditions you noted, there are clear alternatives. With this issue, the alternative is clear, but is also the (cultural) problem.

I dunno, I can only speak to this issue (like many others) in an intellectual way before the spiritual aspect occurs to me and on some topic threads, I choose to refrain from going into that in depth. I'll just note that the spiritual disorder strikes me as seeing a person as either-or when plausibly they are (or we are) both (male and female). The either-or ideology strikes me as the cultural disorder but is way more convoluted than that sound bite and is why I think it could use patience and some tact in going forward to appease resisters up to a point. Not waiting 50 years to do anything, but allowing key points to occur immediately, based on stipulations - though I hesitate to state those as it could appear like a **** you to the people who think no stipulations are necessary and its an all or nothing proposition or real change isn't occurring. The spiritual disorder is overcoming the either-or by realizing a thing or two about physical existence as what very little importance it actually has. The idea (or fact) that we are both is clearly cause for celebration/appreciation, rather than studying the minutiae in hopes that the cultural and personal disorders will eventually find ways to 'cope.'