All this transgender bathroom BS

[Kapalika]

@Acim I will respond to you in the morning.

While I found some of your points maybe a bit over the top.........okay maybe just one.....

Overall bravo.

And I tried really hard to argue against those points but after numerous deletes and edits........bravo and be angry.

Thank you. I am mostly angry as I am transgender too as I've said in another topic it greatly affects my personal life. I wish the public would focus on the more important matters and not the relatively minor one of the restrooms.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Thank you. I am mostly angry as I am transgender too as I've said in another topic it greatly affects my personal life. I wish the public would focus on the more important matters and not the relatively minor one of the restrooms.

Unfortunately, I don't think people want to focus on issues that actually matter because to address those issues would cause our very society to crumble and our current ways of live to come to a screeching halt.

 

[Kapalika]

Unfortunately, I don't think people want to focus on issues that actually matter because to address those issues would cause our very society to crumble and our current ways of live to come to a screeching halt.

Then down with the system; let's bring revolution.

 

[suncowiam]

Unfortunately, I don't think people want to focus on issues that actually matter because to address those issues would cause our very society to crumble and our current ways of live to come to a screeching halt.

Then down with the system; let's bring revolution.

Personally, I'm so far removed from this particular issue. I live in a very liberal state and area. I don't know anyone that is openly gay nor do I know any one that is openly transgendered.

The issue is about peoples' rights not just transgendered rights. If rights can be taken away subjectively which I believe is the case here, then my rights can be taken away subjectively. People need to understand how this impacts their own "liberties".

The main argument so far has been conservatism and popularity. Both of which inherently offers no objective support to the matter.

There's also an argument of perversion but that is completely speculated and derived out fear. Statistics has shown no incidence of transgenders using restrooms to legally cause trouble.

This is just a witch hunt.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The issue is about peoples' rights not just transgendered rights. If rights can be taken away subjectively which I believe is the case here, then my rights can be taken away subjectively. People need to understand how this impacts their own "liberties".

It doesn't. There is no right for getting to pick-and-choose whom you will share public spaces with.

Personally, I'm so far removed from this particular issue. I live in a very liberal state and area. I don't know anyone that is openly gay nor do I know any one that is openly transgendered.

I, on the other hand, live in a state that is so Conservative that the governor considers discrimination based on religious grounds a right, and stated his "restoring freedom of religion" bill was similar to B. Clinton's bill, even though Clinton's law was about traditional religious ceremonies and reagents (the specific issue was Native Americans using peyote during certain religious rituals), not about public discrimination.

 

[dawny0826]

I keep seeing a lot of topics about this. No one really gets what's going on, so here I'm going to break it down.

For those who want a real example of issues important to trans people: http://www.transequality.org/issues

lol no bathrooms on it. okay now back to my topic...

1. Transgender people have been using the bathrooms they want since forever. Sometimes it caused them trouble, but often it doesn't. Only really when transitioning.

2. The only reason this is an issue now is the media and political machine wants a dividing issue after gay marriage won. If transgender was really a real issue we would be talking about healthcare. I'm sick of seeing transgender people used as pawns in a political dance full of lies. The GOP is the worst about this.

3. It seems no one even really seems to understand what being transgender is in any of these discussions. It's not a mental illness, a male to female isn't a "boy" pretending to be a girl. And a FtM isn't a girl pretending to be a boy. It's been medically and scientifically documented for a long time that transgender/transexualism is a real thing.

4. No, no one is going to pretend to be transgender to spy on anyone. Never happened, never will. Someone appearing as the other sex transgender or not will always be heavily scrutinized if they enter a bathroom of the other sex, and in some cases the same sex if they look too butch or effeminate.

5. No, there is no laws preventing anyone from using any bathroom. Well, some states technically had it illegal even post surgery until recently. But nothing was ever enforced so far as I'm aware.

6. Saying only people who've had surgery can go to the bathroom assigned to their gender isn't really fair or really address anything. First off many people can't afford surgery and even FtM don't really have much viable SRS (sexual reassignment surgery). So you are basically saying "**** you" to any FtM. Also there isn't one "surgery" there are multiple ones. Now if you said they had be transitioning (HRT or not) to go into one, that actually makes some sense as it shows the person is really transgender but again no one was ever really posed as transgender to spy on anyone.

7. And no Obama did *not* give an executive order on bathrooms at schools. What *really* happened is the administration told schools that if they continued to discriminate by not allowing transitioning transgender people to use the bathroom of their identified gender they would risk loosing some of their federal funding aid.

8. But back to the main thing, like many things, you don't care about the bathroom issue. If you did all of you would of been raising hell about this years ago. It's always happened. None of you cared. And none of you really care about transgender people. This is all a pet issue. Transgender people have been using bathrooms for years. Sometimes they get beat up, sometimes worse and often nothing.

9. But you know what? Those who really care... actually want to improve the worst parts of transgender people's lives. Access to healthcare, job and housing discrimination, really high rates of homelessness, suicide, and hate crime violence. People make their lives hell and make them not even human, a joke, something that is to be laughed and mocked. Those who don't do this patronize and act like they are noble just for treating them like decent human beings. And all so many see them as is nothing more than their body. Either from the fetish chasers or to all the people who won't shut the **** up and stop asking questions about one's private parts. It's really odd how that's rude in any other situation but the moment they are trans everything is off the table. I've heard from some transgender people about how when someone learns that they are trans sometimes people attempt to grope or feel for body parts or to see if breasts ect other stuff is 'real'. Particularly cops.

10. Violence against transgender people are at an all time high, NONE OF YOU ON THIS FORUM ARE TALKING ABOUT THAT. Every topic I see about transgender people is about this stupid partisan bathroom issue and not even the aspect where it matters like violence or the high UTI rate due to fear of using public restrooms. No just wanting to use them not even the ramifications of the issue for trans folk.

11. Right well half the topics I see anyway is about how so and so is really a boy or so and so is really a girl and will violate the privacy of your kids. Well what about that kid's privacy too? really public restrooms are not totally private being public, and it's just as easy to argue that the trans kids privacy would be just as violated putting them in the other locker/restroom.

12. I Just... get so angry. This isn't even an honest conversation. It's all shrouded in political rivalry. Transgender people are just the backdrop of the culture war... and most in the conversation are not even on transgender people's side... they are on their own side. Soundbite politics are easier than really wanting serious change. The difference here is that people are dying because of it.

http://brandongaille.com/15-profound-transgender-hate-crime-statistics/
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/13/transgender-homicide-victims-us-has-hit-historic-high
http://www.advocate.com/crime/2015/06/09/anti-lgbt-violence-down-anti-trans-hate-crimes

Though I fully agree with each point you've posted and support awareness and advocacy of the same points - I disagree with your choice of verbiage - that no one really gets what's going on. Nice way to undermine and discount the advocacy of allies on this forum. Just because you haven't personally interacted with them...doesn't mean that they aren't here and don't see as clearly as you claim to.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Though I fully agree with each point you've posted and support awareness and advocacy of the same points - I disagree with your choice of verbiage - that no one really gets what's going on. Nice way to undermine and discount the advocacy of allies on this forum. Just because you haven't personally interacted with them...doesn't mean that they aren't here and don't see as clearly as you claim to.

It's been my experience, even on this forum, that even allies are prone to having conditions of acceptance.

 

[dawny0826]

It's been my experience, even on this forum, that even allies are prone to having conditions of acceptance.

That can certainly be true.

 

[Onyx]

I won't argue the origins of transgenderism, some may be legitimate while others not. But personal issues are not government business. And who cares what bathroom someone uses, get a life!

This is yet another contrived "problem" that politicians will leverage for decades to come in order to remain relevant at the voting booth.

I hold individualism in high regard. But I grew up during a time where alternative sexual persuasions were unacceptable, and the outcome was often unfortunate.

In high school, there was an esteemed member of the football team who kept his homosexuality a secret. The rumors didn't take long to spread after being caught making out at a party. He committed suicide.

To those considering such drastic action, reconsider. Hold your flag of individuality up high. Take a **** on your enemies, and a **** down their deserving throats.

 

[ShivaFan]

I honestly don't see very many transvestites complaining about the bathroom situation here in California. Do you? I mean, at 60 years old now I notice my prostrate must be growing so I have to pee a lot now, half the time timing and looking for a bathroom when out running errands and such, and I would say 30% of the time the honey bucket is one of those "unisex" types where only one person goes in at a time and you lock the door behind you.

Sure, in big stores you find men's (those with a male organ) and women's (those with a female organ) bathrooms which have nothing to do with whether you are hetero or homo but what organ you have. Homosexual men have been using the men's bathroom and heterosexual men using the men's bathroom, lesbian or hetero women using the women's bathroom, transvestites with male organs using the men's, transvestites who were men but now with the "operation" using the women's, forever now, no problems - where are the problems? I never hear tranvestities complaining, most of this is political nonsense during a campaign season, like Obama saying "the Republicans" didn't allocate enough money to "fight Zika" when actually it was a huge amount of money allocated by the people's representatives to "fight Zika" at taxpayer's expense and which probably none of the money will be used to "fight Zika" but instead Obama himself is largely to blame taking in hordes of Zikaliens with Zika into the country where illegal aliens are bringing in all sorts of diseases and plagues as unchecked "migrants" and most of this money to "fight Zika" will just be used to give free incentives to illegal aliens to bring in more diseases including sexually transmited Zika virus that probably will become the next HIV, but Somalis are now bringing in plenty of HIV. Obama the phony just wants to deflect the blame.

So this is a lot of politics in an election cycle, mostly b.s.. The right-wing and the Nationalists already gave the common sense solution, each big store and school can have a mens, womens, and unisex (or whatever you want to call it, it doesn't even have to be the one honey bucket with a lock version type) for anyone who is either or, or who has to pee real bad like me and the others are full.

No problem, sure it will cost more money but so do bigger parking lots and bathrooms are sort of like parking lots, too, but a great investment. In India, I have had to use some "pee wall" which isn't even in a room, anyone can pee, even the dogs come and lift their leg, **** is all over and not very clean, just a wall, but at least you get the "open air above your head", yet I like the men(s room at JCPennys better. More clean. Most gas stations you have to ask for the key which is tied to a giant back scratcher or stick, you go into a single lockable honey bucket but there is no place to put the key so you balance it above the laper towel rack and thus this key is full of god forsaken germs, better use hand sanitizer afterwards, many of these are unisex.

So both sides are acting sort of phony on this, the far left is actually abusing the trans, some of the Christian extremists know a third type of bathroom only makes common sense but they just want to yell about homos and so they pretend to ignore common sense, now some of them are attacking Dobald Trump as "friendly to transvestites" which he pretty much is but most Nationalists don't care about this "hate ****" crap, the transvestities are Americans, too, some are great Republicans and Nationalists.

Same in India, the transvestites are just other Indians like other people.

Everybody needs to stop acting like jerks just because they are political dogmatic zealots.

Now I do see the issue of some of my big, beer belly with a beard type male friends who like bikes and might go into the little girls bathroom with a smartphone to practice their hobby of "amateur photography" being a problem. I don't want to allow some male friends like that into the girl's bathroom, or for that matter the male soccer coach with the ugly wife going into shower in the girls team shower room after the game. You need to gave common sense, they can use the mens or the unisex bathroom instead.

More choices are nice.

And Go Trump 2016.

UPDATE: I should add, I think we will evolve to become "asexual" advanced beings neither male nor female and can generate kids without sex. We are oversexed anyway.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Take a **** on your enemies, and a **** down their deserving throats.

I would, but that would require me to view them as significant enough to take time from my day to do that. Really, I have far more important things going on than getting caught up in their petty squabbles, but they brought the negative attention upon themselves.

 

[Acim]

Unfortunately, I don't think people want to focus on issues that actually matter because to address those issues would cause our very society to crumble and our current ways of live to come to a screeching halt.

What would be an example of this? Or was this being said sarcastically?

 

[Acim]

The kids issue is, from what I can tell, the issue getting the most attention right now.

Hard to speak to it without possibly offending someone, but what the heck, I'll give it shot.

I think it is very challenging for some people to understand that a minor would (absolutely) need to make the transition (via help with doctors) from one gender to another before they are 18. Honestly, I'm not 100% sure that even occurs, but I'm thinking it does, and is part of what some people have a huge issue with. They see it, I think, as parents who barely understand the decision being made, but placating the child because the alternative probably strikes them as unnecessary hostile to their child's sense of self / self esteem.

The other huge issue that I don't see anyone downplaying is this notion that many transgender people before, during and after transition have lots of emotional problems that lead them to living a life of their own hardships, not to mention all the ugly hateful discrimination they face from others (which is arguably just as bad if not worst). So a double whammy. When it's adult making the transition, it is presumed there is understanding that they know what's in store, though realistically how could anyone know what that entails? Not the only thing in life when someone thinks they know what's in store and turns out they didn't. But all this needs to be balanced with the idea that many people make the transition and live happily ever after, or same type of issues anyone has. When it is a kid, I think a lot of people think the transition is not fair to what the young person may have to deal with for the rest of their life. Which is the decision of the parents/guardians, and ultimately the issue facing the kid going forward. Either way, the kid was facing the issue and the parents I think fully understand that, so really doesn't seem like a huge deal in terms of the transition will have issues/considerations going forward. Actually, more accurate to say the issue started well before any physical transition was being considered.

I do believe if the kid issue wasn't so pronounced at this time, the spotlight on the whole topic would either not be so bright, or all other transgendered issues would stand a better chance of being addressed in a reasonable way. Yet, I'd stipulate that with idea that this isn't new for many many advocates, so in some ways the spotlight is a blessing, in other ways it is a distraction and/or wedge issue that stands to undermine all other transgender considerations while this remains a wedge issue (likely til November 2016).

I think suggesting that everyone in society suck it up and put away their hateful discrimination and just accept the idea that a transitioned (young) person may be in a restroom that could conceivably make others uncomfortable --- is not being reasonable. It is also I think asking for more ugly hateful discrimination even while it pretends otherwise. That last statement is debatable, but is where I enter the discussion and feel advocacy needs to be more critical about how to proceed rather than pushing and hoping for the best, thinking now is the time to somehow magically get over all discrimination of the ugly hateful variety.

I'm not sure what the solution is and I highly doubt anyone has a solution that will work for everyone. Discrimination of the hateful/hurtful type is already well established as against the law. Against societal norms. All us who despise that have no desire to break that law. We have various levels of contempt for those amongst us that engage in hateful discrimination. Yet, the people who are potentially going to become very hostile if faced with the situation aren't likely to let the law/norms stop them from expressing their hatred. And that expression could be done via violence toward transgendered person.

I honestly think that would be mitigated (though arguably never eliminated) if a more gradual process were undertaken. But for me, that can't mean waiting another 50 years to tackle what is a ripe opportunity to tackle some of it now. I just wouldn't advocate pushing for complete non-discrimination now and think that will work out for everyone, particularly transgendered people. If we (society) go that route, I say trust the idea that things are arguably going to get a whole lot worse for transgendered persons before they get better.

A solution that occurred to me yesterday that might already be obvious solution to many advocate types is to have 3 bathrooms in public schools. One for people who are males that wish to use that one, and is entirely up to school administrators who's allowed in there, one for females and one that is unisex. The unisex one is for people that are accepting, comfortable, can handle the societal transition that is underway. Any student is welcome to use that. But where I differ perhaps others is, I think it ought to be encouraged, and seen as privilege to use the unisex one. Any student engaged in any kind of 'abuse' (harassment, whatever) in the unisex one, loses privileges to that bathroom and must go wherever school administrators dictate is appropriate for them (one of the other two). If parents or advocates (on either side) dislike school administrator's decision on this, then take that up with them, but don't seek to make all of society change when visibly all of society is not ready for that change. The unisex restroom allows for that transition, and in essence promotes it. The other two are the traditional approach and for those who are uncomfortable with the unisex approach are free to stick to the traditional one. Abuse in either of the segregated bathrooms likely already has policies in place, but given what is being called forth, could have a little added penalties that are different than what may already be policy decisions (i.e. harsher penalties as that is what is being transitioned from and there to placate the idea that we visibly do still have hateful ugly discrimination going on).

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What would be an example of this? Or was this being said sarcastically?

I was being serious. Such issues would be how our very standards of living in the West do explicitly and inherently cause severe human rights violations and exploitation and how we consume far too much for the world to keep up with us.

 

[Acim]

I was being serious. Such issues would be how our very standards of living in the West do explicitly and inherently cause severe human rights violations and exploitation and how we consume far too much for the world to keep up with us.

This is a transgender specific issue?

 

[Kapalika]

I honestly don't see very many transvestites complaining about the bathroom situation here in California. Do you?

You are aware that transvestite is not the same thing as transgender, right? Two totally different worlds that actually have clashed in the past.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This is a transgender specific issue?

No. It's issues I'd rather focus on. But because some people apparently believe they have the right to pick and choose whom they will share public spaces with, I get detoured from my rants of Capitalist-Corporate imperialism because I have to pee and some group of ******** aren't letting me.

 

[ShivaFan]

You are aware that transvestite is not the same thing as transgender, right? Two totally different worlds that actually have clashed in the past.

Yes, I am aware but thanks for reminding me.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Now I do see the issue of some of my big, beer belly with a beard type male friends who like bikes and might go into the little girls bathroom with a smartphone to practice their hobby of "amateur photography" being a problem.

You have some interesting friends.

 

[Kapalika]

Yes, I am aware but thanks for reminding me.

Then why were you speaking in the manner that you did?