Allergies and Other Proofs Against God

[.lava]

Satan was not always the evil incarnate many give him credit for.

from what i understood so far, he has always been 'infidel'. but that aspect of him did not come out till human was created.





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[idea]

would you please explain your beliefs about Satan?






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Satan started out like the rest of us, an eternal Spirit who ended up living with Heavenly Father for a time. God put forth a plan to teach us good/evil so that we could learn to use our agency and progress - Satan did not like the plan as it involved pain/suffering/making wrong choices. Satan said our agency/ free will was not worth it. There was a big war in heaven, a bunch of spirits followed satan, gave their agency to him so that they would not feel pain - these spirits never came to Earth, never recieved a body (unless they possessed someone). The other spirits followed God, no pain no gain, were willing to go through whatever it took to refine them / teach them. We are here because we followed God.

Do you want scripts etc. for all of that? or is that good enough?

Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar:
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home:
Heaven lies about us in our infancy!
http://www.poetry-chaikhana.com/W/WordsworthWi/5Ourbirthisb.htm

 

[idea]

from an old post

Does it say God created man from nothing? It does not –
Gen 2:
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Formed – is different than created from nothingness – formed, organized, changed what was already there… then “breathed” life into Adam, not created, breathed it in, placed it in….

There are actually 2 different accounts of the creation in Gen, Chapter 1 gives one account, chapter 2 gives another account in which the creative days are given a different order. Here is chapter 2, in which Adam is created (7) before the garden of Eden (vs 8). Atheists use this as one example where the Bible contradicts itself. I see it as describing two different creative periods, one in heaven “the generations of the heavens” and one on earth - seems pretty clear that chapter 2 is discussing formation/organization in heaven, before spirits were placed in the Earth… see vs 5. … first He forms Adam’s spirit, then He places the spirit in a formed body in Eden…

4 ¶ These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Our birth was not our beginning…
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

We existed before the foundation of the world.
Eph 1: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Job 38: 4 Where wast thou…
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

We are sons and daughters of God –
Psa 82: 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

we were there – we shouted for joy.

Ecc 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

“return” means coming to a state that we have previously been to – not “come” as if it were our first experience, but “return”

Zech 12:1 …the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

He “formed” our spirit before He placed us here on Earth. We call him our “Heavenly” Father because He is literally the father of our spirit… spirit not created from nothingness, formed out of intelligences that God found Himself surrounded by.

There was a war in heaven in which Satan sought to take away our free agency. 1/3 of the formed spirits followed Satan and became fallen angels, never to receive a body. The other 2/3 – us – chose to come here. We are here because we chose to come here.

Rev 12: 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Luke 10: 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Isaiah 14: 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

More details on this war..
Moses 4: 1 AND I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.


"Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost" the only way to save everyone, is to take away agency... "because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man"...

We chose to come to Earth…

This is why I am a convert to the LDS church – it solves the controversy of how a perfect God could be responsible for such an imperfect creation. The answer, He did not create all of it. He will organize, form, change us if we allow Him to, He will not go against our free will though…

 

[richardlowellt]

Satan started out like the rest of us, an eternal Spirit who ended up living with Heavenly Father for a time. God put forth a plan to teach us good/evil so that we could learn to use our agency and progress - Satan did not like the plan as it involved pain/suffering/making wrong choices. Satan said our agency/ free will was not worth it. There was a big war in heaven, a bunch of spirits followed satan, gave their agency to him so that they would not feel pain - these spirits never came to Earth, never recieved a body (unless they possessed someone). The other spirits followed God, no pain no gain, were willing to go through whatever it took to refine them / teach them. We are here because we followed God.

Do you want scripts etc. for all of that? or is that good enough?

No I don't need scripts just some explanation of how you know all this to be true. Is it something you read? Someone told you this? You actually experienced this? I was not aware that I was an eternal spirit that lived with a heavenly father for a time, when was that and how do you know? How do you know God put forth a plan? Exactly how do you come by all of this knowledge?

Now if you are going to present ancient scriptures to support your case, or the bible, or any part of the bible, I think we all know how vague and unreliable ancient documents are. Remember the experiment you do by telling a short story to someone who then tells it to someone else, and the story is retold a number of times? By the time it is retold to you, it is almost indistinquishable from the original, same with your scripts and the bible, add to that multiple translation, we all know how lost some meaning gets between different languages, and we have a very unreliable text.

 

[richardlowellt]

Fair enough.

But the thing is, HOW do you know it does not exist?

Reason and logic.

 

[McBell]

Reason and logic.

Really?
So your reason and logic proves that God does not exist, or are you merely claiming lack of proof is proof?

 

[richardlowellt]

you don't get something from nothing. Thermodynamics - conservation principles - everything that now is has always been and always will be - in one form or another.

Conservation of mass/energy. The origins debate is pointless. There is no origin.

Apparently, or so they say, God created something from nothing, how is that possible without invoking God Magic?

 

[richardlowellt]

Really?
So your reason and logic proves that God does not exist, or are you merely claiming lack of proof is proof?

Everything that exists is explained by science, all I need to know is explained by science, science along with reason and logic tell me no such entity is needed, why invent an imaginary being when non is needed?

 

[McBell]

Everything that exists is explained by science, all I need to know is explained by science, science along with reason and logic tell me no such entity is needed, why invent an imaginary being when non is needed?

So you are claiming that because God is not required to explain anything,God does not exist?

I thought you said that you used logic and reason?

 

[richardlowellt]

So you are claiming that because God is not required to explain anything,God does not exist?

I thought you said that you used logic and reason?

Is there anything reasonable and logical about invoking an imaginary being to accomplish what occurs naturally? There is no reason for God to exist if all can be explained without him.

 

[McBell]

Is there anything reasonable and logical about invoking an imaginary being to accomplish what occurs naturally?

There is if He actually did the things in question.
But you do not know that He didn't do them.
ALL you know is that there are alternatives to "God did it".
This in no way proves God didn't do it, let alone that God does not exist.

There is no reason for God to exist if all can be explained without him.

But that does not mean that He did not do them.
Only that he did not HAVE to do them.

Merely finding alternative ways for things to be done does not prove that the other ways do not exist.

 

[Tiapan]

There is if He actually did the things in question.
But you do not know that He didn't do them.
ALL you know is that there are alternatives to "God did it".
This in no way proves God didn't do it, let alone that God does not exist.


But that does not mean that He did not do them.
Only that he did not HAVE to do them.

Merely finding alternative ways for things to be done does not prove that the other ways do not exist.

Very sound circular logic. If we looked at any other field of endeavor I think we would call this argument "grasping at straws". But it is the only straw a god can hang on.

Cheers

 

[richardlowellt]

There is if He actually did the things in question.
But you do not know that He didn't do them.
ALL you know is that there are alternatives to "God did it".
This in no way proves God didn't do it, let alone that God does not exist.


But that does not mean that He did not do them.
Only that he did not HAVE to do them.

Merely finding alternative ways for things to be done does not prove that the other ways do not exist.

Peter Pan flies into children's rooms and teaches them to fly, he then takes them to never never land I suppose there is no way of proving that peter pan does not do this. The alternative would be that a child or children dreamed this was real. Now I know there is an alternative, does that mean that peter pan in your mind could exist and actually transport children to never never land? In finding this alternative way for children to be whisked away to never never land, does this prove that peter pan does not exist? Logic and reason tell me peter pan does not exist. Is it at all possible that such a being exists and does what I described? Show me the difference between peter pan and God.

 

[McBell]

Very sound circular logic. If we looked at any other field of endeavor I think we would call this argument "grasping at straws". But it is the only straw a god can hang on.

Cheers

I am not using circular reasoning.
Nor is it grasping at straws.

You seem to be making the assumption that I am arguing that God exists.

I am not.
I am merely pointing out the FACT that richardlowellt's logic does not follow.

 

[McBell]

Peter Pan flies into children's rooms and teaches them to fly, he then takes them to never never land I suppose there is no way of proving that peter pan does not do this. The alternative would be that a child or children dreamed this was real. Now I know there is an alternative, does that mean that peter pan in your mind could exist and actually transport children to never never land? In finding this alternative way for children to be whisked away to never never land, does this prove that peter pan does not exist? Logic and reason tell me peter pan does not exist. Is it at all possible that such a being exists and does what I described? Show me the difference between peter pan and God.

Again, you have not proven that Peter Pan does not exist.
You have merely offered up an alternative without proving anything.

Same with your "God does not exist" argument.
You have not proven anything other than there are alternatives to the "God did it" answer.

There being alternatives does not not disprove the existence of God.
In fact, merely because there are explanations other that "God did it" does not even prove that God didn't do it.

 

[Tiapan]

The human minds universe is full of phantoms, eliminating them one at a time reduces these probabilities to the reasonable, so we can at last see reality.

 

[idea]

No I don't need scripts just some explanation of how you know all this to be true. Is it something you read? Someone told you this?

not just someone, a member of the Godhead revealed it to me. The Holy Spirit, not a book, taught me about the plan of salvation. You know how the Bible talks about heavenly messangers coming down and revealing things to people? That still happens. I know, because it happened to me.

 

[idea]

Apparently, or so they say, God created something from nothing, how is that possible without invoking God Magic?

They were wrong. I don't know where they get the something from nothing idea, it is not in the Bible. The Bible teaches us that God is forming what eternally exists.

 

[idea]

Is there anything reasonable and logical about invoking an imaginary being to accomplish what occurs naturally? There is no reason for God to exist if all can be explained without him.

Tell me the origin of the natural laws, and then I will think that God was not needed.

 

[CarlinKnew]

Tell me the origin of the natural laws, and then I will think that God was not needed.

Tell me the origin of God, and then I will think that God^2 was not needed.