Am I saved if I have a different biblical interpretation of the oneness of God?

[Fallen Prophet]

Penalty for sin is eternal death in hell, there is only 1 way to eternal life and that’s through Jesus Christ. Unless you are born again you cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. That’s why He came, we all were destined to hell, we had no hope. Read Hebrews 9

How can anyone suffer "eternal death in hell" if both death and Hell are temporary conditions as described in Revelation 20?

 

[ElishaElijah]

How can anyone suffer "eternal death in hell" if both death and Hell are temporary conditions as described in Revelation 20?

Where do you get the idea hell and death are temporary?

 

[ElishaElijah]

How can anyone suffer "eternal death in hell" if both death and Hell are temporary conditions as described in Revelation 20?

“He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:7, 9-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

 

[Katzpur]

You're probably right - but is it concerning that I like watching them squirm? What does that say about me?

That you're a lot like me.

 

[Andrew Reil]

19 "for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile."
that being the case and as we have no reason to believe that any of the animals have ever gone to heaven .there really is no reason to believe you's will either.

OK thanks for your perspective

 

[Andrew Reil]

My understanding from the scriptures is that everyone - save those who commit the unpardonable sin - will be saved...eventually.

We can begin the process of salvation now by accepting the Lord Jesus Christ in this life, repenting of our sins and receiving forgiveness.

Or we can refuse the Lord and decide to suffer the penalties of our sins in Hell after which we will eventually be forgiven once we have paid our debt.

Salvation is - however- merely the tip of the iceberg as the scriptures mention that the faithful can receive authority before God and can even become like Him if we decide to live up to the standards He has set.

So - according to the scriptures at least - you have nothing to worry about in regards to salvation if your eye is single to the glory of God and if you try to emulate Him you can eventually be as He is.

Thanks. I still want to understand the OSAS perspective

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Where do you get the idea hell and death are temporary?

Are you kidding? I literally referenced the chapter where I got the idea from in my post.

“He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:7, 9-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Let me guess - you believe this to be a depiction of Hell? Even though it is clearly describing the condition of mortals upon the Earth at the time of Christ's return who decides to worship this beast?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Thanks. I still want to understand the OSAS perspective

OSAS?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Are you kidding? I literally referenced the chapter where I got the idea from in my post.

Let me guess - you believe this to be a depiction of Hell? Even though it is clearly describing the condition of mortals upon the Earth at the time of Christ's return who decides to worship this beast?

Where in Revelation chapter 20 does it say people can pay their sin debt in hell and then go to Heaven?

 

[Wrangler]

my understanding is that a Baptist will still admit that a Presbyterian is saved because he or she has accepted Jesus as their personal Savior. But they will not accept that I, as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who accepts Jesus as my personal Savior, is saved. Why?

The answer is simple. Trinitarians value their 4th century made up idea of 3is1ism MORE than the Good News of Salvation through the Servant Jesus that God sent.

I've experienced what you are talking about many, MANY times over the decades.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Are you kidding? I literally referenced the chapter where I got the idea from in my post.

Let me guess - you believe this to be a depiction of Hell? Even though it is clearly describing the condition of mortals upon the Earth at the time of Christ's return who decides to worship this beast?

The consequences for people who take the mark of the beast and worship him says clearly fire and brimstone, burning sulfur,’tormented for ever and ever and says the same thing in 20, thrown into the Lake of Fire for those people, Satan and rebellious angels, false prophet and anyone else whose name isn’t in the Book of Life.

 

[Katzpur]

OSAS?

Once Saved, Always Saved -- you know, the idea that following that split-second epiphany that Jesus is your Savior and your acceptance of Him, nothing you do can possibly change your eternal destiny. "Enduring to the end" is apparently an obsolete notion. (By the way, I wouldn't have bothered to answer @Andrew Reil's question had he not already asked it a half dozen times and gotten no response. I generally prefer to let people who actually believe a doctrine explain their own position, but since nobody seems interested in stepping forward, I thought I'd just jump in with my two cents.)

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Where in Revelation chapter 20 does it say people can pay their sin debt in hell and then go to Heaven?

It doesn't. Not that I can read. I also never made that claim. I claimed that the those who go to Hell can eventually be forgiven of their sins after suffering - unless they committed the unpardonable sin.

However - this is such a bad question - because the scriptures mention several places where we can go after this life but so many ignorant people believe that there is just "Heaven" and "Hell" - that is simply not the case.

The scriptures mention - Paradise, Hell, Prison, Kingdom of God, City of God, Kingdom of Heaven, the third Heaven, lake of fire and brimstone, outer darkness - and these are just those I can remember off the top of my head - there are probably more.

From what I understand - some of these destinations are where our souls go during the time between our death and our Resurrection - while others are places we can go after our Resurrection and our Final Judgment.

Where we go after our death depends on how we lived our lives. If we accepted Christ and repented of our sins. If we died without repentance due to ignorance or willful rebellion. Hell is one of these places. I believe there are two others mentioned - Paradise and Prison.

These are the three places I believe our souls can go while we await our time of Resurrection.

Where we go after the Final Judgment depends not only on how we lived our lives but also on which Resurrection we inherit.

Revelation 20 explains that Satan will be bound in "the bottomless pit" (I believe this to be synonymous with "outer darkness") during the Millennial reign of Christ after His Second Coming. Then those who died for Christ's sake would receive the first Resurrection and rule with Him upon the Earth - while the rest of the dead would remain wherever it is they are as spirits.

Revelation 20 goes on to explain that after the thousand years of Christ and those who rose in the first Resurrection ruling on Earth - Satan will be unbound and there will be a great war - after which Satan, the beast and the false prophet would be cast into the "lake of fire and brimstone" (which I believe is also synonymous with "outer darkness").

Then all the dead will rise (Resurrection) to be judged of God - the Final Judgment - of which both death and hell will yield up the dead that they hold to be judged according to their works.

Then the revelation states, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:14)

Both death and hell - these two conditions - are temporary and will have their end after all of us are Judged and they will be cast into the "lake of fire" (which I believe is synonymous with "outer darkness") and they will go with those whose names are not written in the book of life - who are those who committed the unpardonable sin - into the lake of fire.

According to the Lord - all other sins will be forgiven. (Matthew 12:31)

The consequences for people who take the mark of the beast and worship him says clearly fire and brimstone, burning sulfur,’tormented for ever and ever and says the same thing in 20, thrown into the Lake of Fire for those people, Satan and rebellious angels, false prophet and anyone else whose name isn’t in the Book of Life.

That's not what it says in my version of the Bible (King James).

The King James claims that those who worship the Beast would suffer the wrath of God - which is a torment described as "fire and brimstone" - but only the "smoke of their torment" would ascend up "forever and ever" - not that the torment itself would last forever.

It also claims that they would not enter into rest - which would make sense if they went to Hell after their deaths - but as I already explained - death and Hell are temporary conditions and that all sins would eventually be forgiven - save the unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost.

As far as I know idol worship is not the unpardonable sin - so those who worship the Beast can eventually be forgiven after they suffer in Hell for a time.

I'm not saying that they are going to "Heaven" (whatever that is) - just that they are not going to "the lake of fire", "the bottomless pit" or "outer darkness" - but somewhere else in the Kingdom of God after they suffer and are eventually forgiven.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Once Saved, Always Saved -- you know, the idea that following that split-second epiphany that Jesus is your Savior and your acceptance of Him, nothing you do can possibly change your eternal destiny. "Enduring to the end" is apparently an obsolete notion. (By the way, I wouldn't have bothered to answer @Andrew Reil's question had he not already asked it a half dozen times and gotten no response. I generally prefer to let people who actually believe a doctrine explain their own position, but since nobody seems interested in stepping forward, I thought I'd just jump in with my two cents.(

Thank you. I have heard of that doctrine - just not the acronym.

 

[ElishaElijah]

It doesn't. Not that I can read. I also never made that claim. I claimed that the those who go to Hell can eventually be forgiven of their sins after suffering - unless they committed the unpardonable sin.

However - this is such a bad question - because the scriptures mention several places where we can go after this life but so many ignorant people believe that there is just "Heaven" and "Hell" - that is simply not the case.

The scriptures mention - Paradise, Hell, Prison, Kingdom of God, City of God, Kingdom of Heaven, the third Heaven, lake of fire and brimstone, outer darkness - and these are just those I can remember off the top of my head - there are probably more.

From what I understand - some of these destinations are where our souls go during the time between our death and our Resurrection - while others are places we can go after our Resurrection and our Final Judgment.

Where we go after our death depends on how we lived our lives. If we accepted Christ and repented of our sins. If we died without repentance due to ignorance or willful rebellion. Hell is one of these places. I believe there are two others mentioned - Paradise and Prison.

These are the three places I believe our souls can go while we await our time of Resurrection.

Where we go after the Final Judgment depends not only on how we lived our lives but also on which Resurrection we inherit.

Revelation 20 explains that Satan will be bound in "the bottomless pit" (I believe this to be synonymous with "outer darkness") during the Millennial reign of Christ after His Second Coming. Then those who died for Christ's sake would receive the first Resurrection and rule with Him upon the Earth - while the rest of the dead would remain wherever it is they are as spirits.

Revelation 20 goes on to explain that after the thousand years of Christ and those who rose in the first Resurrection ruling on Earth - Satan will be unbound and there will be a great war - after which Satan, the beast and the false prophet would be cast into the "lake of fire and brimstone" (which I believe is also synonymous with "outer darkness").

Then all the dead will rise (Resurrection) to be judged of God - the Final Judgment - of which both death and hell will yield up the dead that they hold to be judged according to their works.

Then the revelation states, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:14)

Both death and hell - these two conditions - are temporary and will have their end after all of us are Judged and they will be cast into the "lake of fire" (which I believe is synonymous with "outer darkness") and they will go with those whose names are not written in the book of life - who are those who committed the unpardonable sin - into the lake of fire.

According to the Lord - all other sins will be forgiven. (Matthew 12:31)

That's not what it says in my version of the Bible (King James).

The King James claims that those who worship the Beast would suffer the wrath of God - which is a torment described as "fire and brimstone" - but only the "smoke of their torment" would ascend up "forever and ever" - not that the torment itself would last forever.

It also claims that they would not enter into rest - which would make sense if they went to Hell after their deaths - but as I already explained - death and Hell are temporary conditions and that all sins would eventually be forgiven - save the unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost.

As far as I know idol worship is not the unpardonable sin - so those who worship the Beast can eventually be forgiven after they suffer in Hell for a time.

I'm not saying that they are going to "Heaven" (whatever that is) - just that they are not going to "the lake of fire", "the bottomless pit" or "outer darkness" - but somewhere else in the Kingdom of God after they suffer and are eventually forgiven.

It doesn't. Not that I can read. I also never made that claim. I claimed that the those who go to Hell can eventually be forgiven of their sins after suffering - unless they committed the unpardonable sin.

However - this is such a bad question - because the scriptures mention several places where we can go after this life but so many ignorant people believe that there is just "Heaven" and "Hell" - that is simply not the case.

The scriptures mention - Paradise, Hell, Prison, Kingdom of God, City of God, Kingdom of Heaven, the third Heaven, lake of fire and brimstone, outer darkness - and these are just those I can remember off the top of my head - there are probably more.

From what I understand - some of these destinations are where our souls go during the time between our death and our Resurrection - while others are places we can go after our Resurrection and our Final Judgment.

Where we go after our death depends on how we lived our lives. If we accepted Christ and repented of our sins. If we died without repentance due to ignorance or willful rebellion. Hell is one of these places. I believe there are two others mentioned - Paradise and Prison.

These are the three places I believe our souls can go while we await our time of Resurrection.

Where we go after the Final Judgment depends not only on how we lived our lives but also on which Resurrection we inherit.

Revelation 20 explains that Satan will be bound in "the bottomless pit" (I believe this to be synonymous with "outer darkness") during the Millennial reign of Christ after His Second Coming. Then those who died for Christ's sake would receive the first Resurrection and rule with Him upon the Earth - while the rest of the dead would remain wherever it is they are as spirits.

Revelation 20 goes on to explain that after the thousand years of Christ and those who rose in the first Resurrection ruling on Earth - Satan will be unbound and there will be a great war - after which Satan, the beast and the false prophet would be cast into the "lake of fire and brimstone" (which I believe is also synonymous with "outer darkness").

Then all the dead will rise (Resurrection) to be judged of God - the Final Judgment - of which both death and hell will yield up the dead that they hold to be judged according to their works.

Then the revelation states, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:14)

Both death and hell - these two conditions - are temporary and will have their end after all of us are Judged and they will be cast into the "lake of fire" (which I believe is synonymous with "outer darkness") and they will go with those whose names are not written in the book of life - who are those who committed the unpardonable sin - into the lake of fire.

According to the Lord - all other sins will be forgiven. (Matthew 12:31)

That's not what it says in my version of the Bible (King James).

The King James claims that those who worship the Beast would suffer the wrath of God - which is a torment described as "fire and brimstone" - but only the "smoke of their torment" would ascend up "forever and ever" - not that the torment itself would last forever.

It also claims that they would not enter into rest - which would make sense if they went to Hell after their deaths - but as I already explained - death and Hell are temporary conditions and that all sins would eventually be forgiven - save the unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost.

As far as I know idol worship is not the unpardonable sin - so those who worship the Beast can eventually be forgiven after they suffer in Hell for a time.

I'm not saying that they are going to "Heaven" (whatever that is) - just that they are not going to "the lake of fire", "the bottomless pit" or "outer darkness" - but somewhere else in the Kingdom of God after they suffer and are eventually forgiven.

You said - Or we can refuse the Lord and decide to suffer the penalties of our sins in Hell after which we will eventually be forgiven once we have paid out debt.

This is a false statement because eternal life isn’t earned or deserved it’s a gift from God. Without the shedding of blood(Jesus Christ the Passover Lamb’s blood) there is no forgiveness for sin.
That’s the only way your name is written in the Book of Life otherwise you go to hell forever and ever. It’s appointed to man once to die then the judgement so make your decision while you’re alive or it’s too late.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

You said - Or we can refuse the Lord and decide to suffer the penalties of our sins in Hell after which we will eventually be forgiven once we have paid out debt.

This is a false statement because eternal life isn’t earned or deserved it’s a gift from God. Without the shedding of blood(Jesus Christ the Passover Lamb’s blood) there is no forgiveness for sin.
That’s the only way your name is written in the Book of Life otherwise you go to hell forever and ever. It’s appointed to man once to die then the judgement so make your decision while you’re alive or it’s too late.

You and I agree on way more than we disagree in regards to this topic.

Notice in my comment that I did not say that they would be forgiven and then "go to Heaven" or that they would "inherit eternal life".

Everyone - no matter what they do in this life - even if they commit the unpardonable sin - will be redeemed from death through the grace of Jesus Christ the Lord. Meaning - everyone will one day receive a bodily Resurrection.

This is the "free gift" referred to in the scriptures. A universal gift that everyone will receive no matter what.

Now - we can receive different levels of glory in our Resurrection - like Paul explained in 1 Corinthians 15 - but everyone will still receive a Resurrection before their Final Judgment.

Forgiveness of sin - however - can only come through suffering - either through repentance or time in Hell.

Just like with the idea of the Resurrection - we can receive or be denied certain blessings depending on when and how we seek forgiveness.

Those who live faithful lives not only will overcome death and sin through Christ - but they can go on to rule beside Him and inherit all that He inherits and become like Him - this is "eternal life".

The less faithful and down to those who live in open rebellion will receive (or be denied) various blessings according to their works - but they will eventually be forgiven of all of their sins - unless they committed the unpardonable sin

Those who were wicked and lived in open rebellion will go to Hell and suffer there until the time of their Resurrection.

I vehemently deny the idea that the "eternal life" is something not earned or deserved - because it would make the idea of a Final Judgment - where we are to be judged "according to our works" obsolete and pointless.

I don't understand how you can still be claiming that anyone can go to Hell forever and ever after I quoted to you from Revelation 20 that Hell will be cast into the "lake of fire" after the Final Judgment.

Since only those who commit the unpardonable sin will never be forgiven - only those who commit that sin will go to the "lake of fire" - not Hell - since Hell will have an end.

This mortal life is our time to repent of our sins. Repentance is a choice. Suffering in Hell is not. We can choose to repent here in this life and benefit - or suffer in Hell for a time and be denied many blessings - such as "eternal life" or the potential to become like the Lord Jesus Christ.

Since all sins - save the unpardonable one - will eventually be forgiven (according to the words of Christ) - there will be those who will enter into God's Kingdom yet not be inheritors of "eternal life".

They will serve God - but will be unable to ever become like Him.

 

[Andrew Reil]

OSAS?

Once saved, always saved

 

[Andrew Reil]

The answer is simple. Trinitarians value their 4th century made up idea of 3is1ism MORE than the Good News of Salvation through the Servant Jesus that God sent.

I've experienced what you are talking about many, MANY times over the decades.

Thank-you for your perspective. I have also experienced people telling me that.

 

[ElishaElijah]

You and I agree on way more than we disagree in regards to this topic.

Notice in my comment that I did not say that they would be forgiven and then "go to Heaven" or that they would "inherit eternal life".

Everyone - no matter what they do in this life - even if they commit the unpardonable sin - will be redeemed from death through the grace of Jesus Christ the Lord. Meaning - everyone will one day receive a bodily Resurrection.

This is the "free gift" referred to in the scriptures. A universal gift that everyone will receive no matter what.

Now - we can receive different levels of glory in our Resurrection - like Paul explained in 1 Corinthians 15 - but everyone will still receive a Resurrection before their Final Judgment.

Forgiveness of sin - however - can only come through suffering - either through repentance or time in Hell.

Just like with the idea of the Resurrection - we can receive or be denied certain blessings depending on when and how we seek forgiveness.

Those who live faithful lives not only will overcome death and sin through Christ - but they can go on to rule beside Him and inherit all that He inherits and become like Him - this is "eternal life".

The less faithful and down to those who live in open rebellion will receive (or be denied) various blessings according to their works - but they will eventually be forgiven of all of their sins - unless they committed the unpardonable sin

Those who were wicked and lived in open rebellion will go to Hell and suffer there until the time of their Resurrection.

I vehemently deny the idea that the "eternal life" is something not earned or deserved - because it would make the idea of a Final Judgment - where we are to be judged "according to our works" obsolete and pointless.

I don't understand how you can still be claiming that anyone can go to Hell forever and ever after I quoted to you from Revelation 20 that Hell will be cast into the "lake of fire" after the Final Judgment.

Since only those who commit the unpardonable sin will never be forgiven - only those who commit that sin will go to the "lake of fire" - not Hell - since Hell will have an end.

This mortal life is our time to repent of our sins. Repentance is a choice. Suffering in Hell is not. We can choose to repent here in this life and benefit - or suffer in Hell for a time and be denied many blessings - such as "eternal life" or the potential to become like the Lord Jesus Christ.

Since all sins - save the unpardonable one - will eventually be forgiven (according to the words of Christ) - there will be those who will enter into God's Kingdom yet not be inheritors of "eternal life".

They will serve God - but will be unable to ever become like Him.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:23‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
Your misinterpreting what Jesus said about the unpardonable sin. But the only way any sins are forgiven is by the blood of Jesus.

 

[Andrew Reil]

Once Saved, Always Saved -- you know, the idea that following that split-second epiphany that Jesus is your Savior and your acceptance of Him, nothing you do can possibly change your eternal destiny. "Enduring to the end" is apparently an obsolete notion. (By the way, I wouldn't have bothered to answer @Andrew Reil's question had he not already asked it a half dozen times and gotten no response. I generally prefer to let people who actually believe a doctrine explain their own position, but since nobody seems interested in stepping forward, I thought I'd just jump in with my two cents.(

Yes, thank you.

I still hope to find someone so I can find an answer from their perspective - basically the next level: why that?