An Atheist Dad Left His Kids with a Relative… Who Used the Opportunity to Proselytize the Kids

[freethinker44]

What should the dad do? "His sister-in-law wanted to spend some quality time with his two daughters [ages 6 & 8] by taking them out for ice cream — why would he say no to that? So the girls went with their aunt. When they arrived, the aunt’s pastor was waiting for them…" [Source (minor use of foul language)]

What would you do, if you were the father?

If I was that father that would be the last time my kids ever seen or spoke to that aunt, at least as long as I was their legal guardian. And I would definitely look in to suing the church and/or any civil/criminal charges.
I have zero tolerance for stuff like that.
My mom was literally on her death bed and while talking to her on the phone (I lived a few states away) she used her impending death to try to guilt me into religion, and I just hung up the phone on her.
Zero tolerance.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I personally think they are both childish. Yes, the aunt was in the wrong but the dad needs an attitude adjustment, as well. They both sound like closed-minded, bitter people. Family, indeed.

 

[Ingledsva]

What should the dad do? "His sister-in-law wanted to spend some quality time with his two daughters [ages 6 & 8] by taking them out for ice cream — why would he say no to that? So the girls went with their aunt. When they arrived, the aunt’s pastor was waiting for them…" [Source (minor use of foul language)]

What would you do, if you were the father?

I liked the first reply -

"AlissaA - I would use the incident as a learning experience for my children.
Girls, this is what religion can do to a person. Your aunt knew it was wrong to tell you to lie to your parents. She was wrong to try to scare you but she did it anyway because her judgement was clouded by her beliefs. Religion sometimes causes people to do bad things they ordinarily would never have considered."

I also liked the article answer -

" Personally, I’m tempted to give the aunt an ultimatum: if anything like that ever happens again, she will not be allowed to see the girls in the future

I would add to that by telling the aunt that she probably broke several laws when taking the children under false pretenses, and terrorizing them with terroristic threats - of damnation, and their father burning in Hell forever - if they didn't convert - and then save him.

Both Atheist and Christian children should be able to grow up, - and then make these decisions for themselves.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

I agree with you, it was unfair, cowardly. Perhaps the father should engage the aunt in front of the children. (Ask for proof)

Now that would be interesting! LOL!

*

 

[Aupmanyav]

No, I did not mean -> 'that'.

 

[psychoslice]

Does a parent have the right to decide whether or not his or her children are indoctrinated in a religion? What do you think?

I think they do have the right while the child is at a young age.

 

[Grumpuss]

What should the dad do? "His sister-in-law wanted to spend some quality time with his two daughters [ages 6 & 8] by taking them out for ice cream — why would he say no to that? So the girls went with their aunt. When they arrived, the aunt’s pastor was waiting for them…" [Source (minor use of foul language)]

What would you do, if you were the father?

If the lessons and information the pastor was presenting to the girls sunk in, then it is God's will that they should be blessed so. The man's sister made a poor choice in how she arranged this, but perhaps she believed God could justify her actions.

In truth, no one was hurt and now those girls have at least some grounded basis of morality. I just hope that the father sees the futility in trying to brainwash his daughters out of their newfound knowledge.

 

[HonestJoe]

In truth, no one was hurt and now those girls have at least some grounded basis of morality. I just hope that the father sees the futility in trying to brainwash his daughters out of their newfound knowledge.

Well the Aunt reportedly told the children to lie to their father about the incident (and I believe there are a couple of commandments relating to that) but that the father had already taught them to be honest so they told him anyway. Have you considered the possibility that people can have a grounded basis for morality without being Christian?

There’s a difference between learning about religion and being indoctrinated in to it. The report suggests the Aunt was very much seeking the latter, for the daughters and, though them, their father. It seems the girls have only gained flawed and corrupt knowledge of Christianity which won’t do anyone involved any favours.

 

[Sees]

^ yeah, scare tactic ultimatums are not the best morality lessons...

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If the lessons and information the pastor was presenting to the girls sunk in, then it is God's will that they should be blessed so. The man's sister made a poor choice in how she arranged this, but perhaps she believed God could justify her actions.

How is trying to scare children and telling them to lie something God would be happy with or justify?

In truth, no one was hurt and now those girls have at least some grounded basis of morality.

You don't need religion or knowledge of any gods to be moral. It is just not a prerequisite or requirement for morality.

I just hope that the father sees the futility in trying to brainwash his daughters out of their newfound knowledge.

Who was trying to do the brainwashing? The one going about his ways and bringing his children up in accordance with his views, or the one who set up a secret meeting, resorted to scare tactics, and then told the children to lie about the whole thing?

 

[skl]

In truth, no one was hurt and now those girls have at least some grounded basis of morality.

Where is the morality in teaching children your own personal ideology, would you like your child to be indoctrinated into Islam or communism? Many thousands died fighting for political freedoms in world wars and religions have killed many thousands in the name of their gods, therefore why should children be indoctrinated into to the same crap? I say let them have real freedom to make up their own minds.

 

[Sunstone]

If the lessons and information the pastor was presenting to the girls sunk in, then it is God's will that they should be blessed so. The man's sister made a poor choice in how she arranged this, but perhaps she believed God could justify her actions.

In truth, no one was hurt and now those girls have at least some grounded basis of morality. I just hope that the father sees the futility in trying to brainwash his daughters out of their newfound knowledge.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, so you won't mind somone indoctrinating your children in atheism, then, right?

 

[Sunstone]

There’s a difference between learning about religion and being indoctrinated in to it.

Exactly! It seems to me that distinction has been ignored by several of the posters in this thread.

 

[Sunstone]

I personally think they are both childish. Yes, the aunt was in the wrong but the dad needs an attitude adjustment, as well. They both sound like closed-minded, bitter people. Family, indeed.

Interesting. Why does the dad seem closed-minded to you? Why does he seem bitter to you?

 

[Quintessence]

Exactly! It seems to me that distinction has been ignored by several of the posters in this thread.

Because I have to raise the question...

... presuming this distinction exists, how do we measure it and quantify it? Once we quantify it, can we demonstrate that this distinction produces substantive differences in adult worldviews?

I suppose what I'm getting at here is that one tiny event of "indoctrination" is not likely to have some profound, long-term effect on the child as they grow into an adult. I mean, it could (flashbulb moments are a thing after all)... but this is difficult to trace and measure. Guess I'd want to see the science proving this is impactful, and then I would have to agree with the value-laden assumption that the given impacts are "bad" in some way.

Overthinking things as usual... feel free to just ignore me.

 

[Sunstone]

One can frame the issue as thus instead:

To what extent is it possible and/or reasonable to limit one's exposure to any given cultural influence?

But one really can't frame the issue that way without changing it in the process, for the real issue seems to be far from limiting exposure to cultural influences. The real issue seems to be whether a parent has a right to prevent their child from being indoctrinated or proselytized into a religion or ideology that the parent does not want their child indoctrinated or proselytized into. For instance, suppose a person were to take some parent's eight year old child aside and indoctrinate her in the White Aryan Ideology. It's pretty close to a religion in many ways. Does the parent have any right at all to object to or prevent that? We are not talking here about preventing the child from cultural knowledge of the White Aryan Ideology. Instead, we are talking about converting through indoctrination and proselytization someone's minor child in an ideology that the parent might disapprove of.

 

[Sunstone]

Because I have to raise the question...

... presuming this distinction exists

To clarify: Are you saying then that you question whether there is a distinction between teaching while indoctrinating -- that is, teaching someone to accept a set of beliefs without questioning them (which in an earlier post I identified as the working definition of "indoctrination" in this thread) -- and teaching while not indoctrinating?

If there seems to be no significant distinction between the two to you, then I don't think we share enough in common on this issue to have a discussion.

...can we demonstrate that this distinction produces substantive differences in adult worldviews?

I think it's a fair assumption that young children be taught not to question certain views or beliefs, and that this can affect them for perhaps the rest of their lives.

I suppose what I'm getting at here is that one tiny event of "indoctrination" is not likely to have some profound, long-term effect on the child as they grow into an adult. I mean, it could (flashbulb moments are a thing after all)... but this is difficult to trace and measure. Guess I'd want to see the science proving this is impactful, and then I would have to agree with the value-laden assumption that the given impacts are "bad" in some way.

But we are not discussing here whether the event described in the OP is "impactful". Nor are we even discussing whether it is "bad". You are the one introducing these criteria and then shooting them down. The OP does not reference them.

Further more, in other posts, I have put the question as an issue of parental rights. But I have not put the question as an issue of what impact indoctrination and proselytizing have on children, nor as an issue of whether any impact is morally good or bad.

Overthinking things as usual... feel free to just ignore me.

I agree you're overthinking this, but I also think you're overthinking it in fascinating ways. So, thanks for the interesting post!

EDIT: I myself overthink things routinely!

 

[turk179]

The same as I would as a mother. I'd establish boundaries with my sisters. If she couldn't respect the boundaries that I set involving my child, she would not be trusted with them again.

I couldn't agree more. I want my children to have the chance to make up their own minds about religion. If that happened to my children, there would definitely be boundaries established. Although I do feel that saying one would not allow the aunt to ever see the kids again is a bit harsh. Seeing the children again unsupervised might be out of the question though if they couldn't respect the boundaries.

 

[RRex]

What should the dad do? "His sister-in-law wanted to spend some quality time with his two daughters [ages 6 & 8] by taking them out for ice cream — why would he say no to that? So the girls went with their aunt. When they arrived, the aunt’s pastor was waiting for them…" [Source (minor use of foul language)]

What would you do, if you were the father?

I would have nothing further to do with this person.

That is dirty pool.

 

[Ingledsva]

If I was that father that would be the last time my kids ever seen or spoke to that aunt, at least as long as I was their legal guardian. And I would definitely look in to suing the church and/or any civil/criminal charges.
I have zero tolerance for stuff like that.
My mom was literally on her death bed and while talking to her on the phone (I lived a few states away) she used her impending death to try to guilt me into religion, and I just hung up the phone on her.
Zero tolerance.

When my Grandmother died - her church tried to do the same thing AT THE FUNERAL!!!

They were supposed to be handing around the microphone for telling fond memories of Grandma. Instead they were going on-and-on with testimonies of their own coming to Jesus, - and constantly telling the family that all she wanted was for them to come to Jesus. I was totally disgusted. It was disgraceful at a funeral!

*