What's your religion, if any?
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An Open Letter to RF
- Thread starter Debater Slayer
- Start date
What's your religion, if any?
Jumi
Well-Known Member
I'm with you here Lyndon. When I was depressed there were all kinds of people trying to "help". Usually they advised me to do something they considered exciting, like joining an evangelic bible study group or taking boxing lessons. The thing to do is to consider the person themselves and what is realistic.
The original poster reports that their primary issue is social isolation, due to the fact that they are unable to share their atheism with those in their offline real world environment. It's entirely appropriate to remind them that they don't need to discuss their atheism with offline contacts, as there are 1,000 other topics any of us can discuss with friends.
Your philosophy poses the original poster as a helpless victim of forces beyond their control. That seems pretty insensitive and rude to me.
My philosophy poses the original poster as an intelligent, capable person of reason who can analyze their situation and change if for the better. The original poster reports that it is their situation that is their primary problem.
The simple truth is that most of the time we are the cause of most of our own problems, which is actually good news, as this means we usually are in a position to solve our problems if we choose to.
It's not clear to me yet whether the original poster wishes to change their situation and solve their problems.
Lyndon, instead of making a vague emotional characterization of my post, why not tell us specifically which sentences you object to and why? Here is the post again. Put up or shut up please.
Do you object to this? If yes, specifically why?
Do you object to this? If yes, specifically why?
Do you object to this? If yes, specifically why?
The best term I've been able to come up with is Fundamentalist Agnostic, which is sort of a joke, but sort of accurate too.
I've addressed all my comments to the situation of the original poster, as described by the original poster. It's up to the original poster to decide for themselves whether my comments are useful to them, and whether I should keep posting here. If they should prefer that I stop posting here so that they can focus on your comments instead, that's ok with me, no problem.
You are oversimplifying what I said. My problem is not just that I can't be open about my views per se; it's mainly that I can't be who I am and not hide anything without putting my safety at risk. I shouldn't have to fear persecution and discrimination for stating my views openly like most people do.
You said you were agnostic. Imagine living in a place where most people believe that agnostics should be killed. Also imagine living in a place where most people are homophobic, sexist, and intolerant of almost any beliefs that contradict theirs. Try living in a place like Saudi Arabia where most of the population believe that people like you should be killed and then tell me how you feel. Until or unless you have done that or understood what it's like to live in such a place as a member of a tiny minority, you have neither the experience nor the knowledge required to judge my situation or give any useful advice here.
Have a nice day.
I accept your correction, though it seems almost exactly like what I said.
My question throughout the thread has been....
Do you want to do anything about your situation, or do you just want to restate it again and again?
If the later, as appears to be the case, then you're right, I have nothing to contribute here. I'm not interested in a fantasy victim story, I'm interested in a real world success story.
As long as you keep labeling depression a "fantasy victim story," you will remain incapable of providing any advice on what to do about a situation like this. Real world success stories don't come from unscientific utopian catchphrases.
Here's what I mean by "fantasy victim story", just so I won't be throwing that label around in a vague manner. To the degree I've done that above, that's my fault, and I apologize for a lack of clarity.
You state you are socially isolated because you can't discuss atheism in your local area. I accept that you can't discuss atheism, but don't accept that this means you have to be socially isolated, as there are MANY other topics which can be discussed among friends.
Thus, your social isolation is a self inflicted wound. Social isolation is not being imposed on you by others, it's being chosen by you.
If you should be serious about improving your situation this is GOOD NEWS, though admittedly perhaps unwelcome good news. If you are the cause of the problem, then you are in a position to fix the problem.
There's no point in being an atheist if you are not going to at least try to use reason when it matters most.
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.
Wrong. If you want to know why I stated that I'm socially isolated, re-read my previous reply to you. I'm not interested in turning this into a debate thread.
Sure. Wish me luck in trying to change the cultural traditions and beliefs around me. That should be an easy task.
Or just don't comment on things you don't have enough knowledge about so that your comments don't seem so uninformed.
Your previous comments tell us why you think you're socially isolated, not why you are socially isolated. It was useful for you to tell us why you think you're socially isolated.
I never suggested you try to change the Middle East, or anybody but yourself. I suggested changing yourself because you're stated you're an atheist, a passionate one it appears, and changing yourself is the rational action to take here.
I agree, you can't change the Middle East. So it's not rational to focus on that.
I agree, you can't change those around you. So it's not rational to focus on that.
Finally, it may not be rational for you to focus on changing yourself either if you don't have the goal of improving your situation.
And it may not be rational for me to assume that is your goal, given there isn't a lot of evidence of that so far. The way to debunk me is to state in a clear unambiguous manner that you don't have the goal of improving your situation, which if true, would indeed make my contributions here an unproductive distraction.
If you don't like the suggestion that you may not have the goal of improving your situation, the way to debunk me would be to provide evidence of your own efforts to improve your situation. Such efforts need not have anything to do with any of my comments.
If your goal is to improve your situation, I'm sure you can have that. If your goal is to solicit our help in wallowing in self pity, I'm sure you can have that too. Either way, it's your choice to make.
All I'm suggesting is that if you wish to reach your goal, it will be very helpful to be very clear about what your goal really actually is. This is called reason, a subject you have declared an interest in.
I'm informed by 63 years of real world living.
And you've been an adult for some number of months, right? If true, it's entirely reasonable that you don't get all this yet, as none of us are born knowing all these things. Typically we learn these things through extensive suffering. If that's how you wish to learn these things, you have every right to choose that road.
Or, as an aspiring person of reason, you also have the choice to use reason to greatly reduce your suffering, should that be your goal.
It all depends on what your goal is.
If you can get clear on what your real goal is, then others may be able to assist.
If you don't know what your goal is, then the best we can probably do is share well meaning empty platitudes that do more to make us feel better about ourselves than they do make you feel better about yourself.
As I said, I'm not interested in turning this into a debate thread. I just find it unfortunate that someone who is 63 can make such misinformed assumptions about the nature of depression and its causes. Maybe you haven't done enough reading in your 63 years of living.
If you would like to state your opinions about depression, feel free to do so in another thread. I don't want mine to be derailed.
Derailed from what?
Tell us what the goal of this thread is, and then those who choose to participate will be in a better position to assist that goal.
I've not stated any opinions about depression. I've addressed myself specifically to your situation, as defined by you.
I made this thread to talk about what is bothering me without having to deal with the judgmental attitudes I usually encounter from people offline when I talk about who I am without mincing words. I don't want to derail the thread into a debate about what you think of depression or my situation. I have no desire to debate misinformed opinions here.
Ok, let me see if I understand.
The goal is that you should be able talk here without mincing your words. And that we should listen, while carefully mincing our own words. Fair summary?
Could this maybe be related to why you are, as you describe it, socially isolated?
Could it be that while it's important to you that others in your offline world accept you as you are....
...that you are unwilling to accept them as they are?
Could it be that you are asking for something you are unwilling to give in return?
I have no desire to engage in this conversation any further in this thread. Please respect my wish.
It looks like you are not helping the situation at all.
I suggest changing tactics, if logic truly is your approach.
If the things we want to hear...
Could take us where we want to go...
We'd already be there.