An Open Letter to RF

[sun rise]

That's what a lot of people say. But, realistically, for many things never do get better.

External circumstances might or might not change. But how one deals emotionally and intellectually with those circumstances can change. But no matter the outer circumstances, what goes on inside is what is truly important. One blog I read noted that millions, perhaps 120 million people in the world are depressed. This is reflected in google images such as:

I hope you can hear:

You are not alone. Many have been where you are today and many are where you are today.

We here can't fix your problem but we can listen. We can offer support.

There is a path out of darkness for you even if it feels hopeless today.

 

[Jumi]

Things change, believe it or not, you can be in a happy place in a year or two and none of this bad stuff will seem this big then. Move to Scandinavia, there's plenty of people here like you and you can probably study for masters degree for free. I seen some guys and girls from Iraq, Lebanon, Iran come here solely for that reason. To get away and start all over.

 

[Typist]

That's what a lot of people say. But, realistically, for many things never do get better.

Realistically, for the vast majority of people, things do get better once they emerge from their twenties. Of course, it's understandable if those still in their twenties don't yet see this.

 

[Typist]

External circumstances might or might not change. But how one deals emotionally and intellectually with those circumstances can change.

Yes, that's it. It's not situations that are really the problem, but our relationship with situations. And that's good news, because our relationship with situations can evolve and mature, and is ultimately under our control.

The bad news is that we all can have a tendency to enjoy playing the role of victim, and so we often pretend we have no control, when really we do. This is easy to see in others, harder to see in ourselves.

 

[Debater Slayer]

For many people, their situations are the problem. You can't tell a victim of bullying, for example, that their situation is not really the problem. You can't tell the families of suicide victims that their children's situations weren't the reason they decided to end their lives. That ignores the very concrete and tangible effects of people's circumstances on them, especially their social interactions. Situations affect people's lives. They are even the reason many people become severely depressed and start self-harming, possibly to the point of killing themselves. There are many examples of that happening in the real world, outside the idealistic utopias that some people build around starry-eyed mottos.

I have managed not to kill myself or "be a coward" so far (try telling families of suicide victims that their genuinely struggling loved ones were "cowards" and then tell me what response you get). Millions of people haven't been as fortunate. I don't know whether I will manage not to do it at all, but to narrow the problem down to statements like "situations are not the problem" or "suicide is cowardice" is simplistic, unrealistic, and irresponsible at best.

I appreciate that people are trying to help, and I'm really grateful for that. However, I'm criticizing certain statements because I think they are quite incorrect and possibly insulting to many victims of suicide--of whom I'm not one at the moment, thankfully.

 

[Typist]

For many people, their situations are the problem.

Ok fair enough, so let's get on to addressing your situation.

but to narrow the problem down to statements like "situations are not the problem"

You referenced these situations in your opening post.

- health issues
- struggles with school
- financial issues
- social isolation
- extremely negative thoughts

Which one would you like to discuss first?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Ok fair enough, so let's get on to addressing your situation.



You referenced these situations in your opening post.

- health issues
- struggles with school
- financial issues
- social isolation
- extremely negative thoughts

Which one would you like to discuss first?

What would be the point of discussing any of them?

 

[Typist]

What would be the point of discussing any of them?

You've claimed the following...

1) You are a person of reason
2) You might kill yourself
3) Your situations are the primary problem

If I've misunderstood any of the above, please correct me. Thank you. I'm just reporting my understanding so far, not trying to put words in your mouth.

The point of discussing your situations would be for you to put the reason and intelligence you are clearly capable of to work. If you're not going to use such tools even to save your own life, what's the point of having them? What would be the point of being an atheist if you were to abandon reason at the most important moment?

Sorry to push, but you have reported a life and death situation, and we're all taken your report seriously. So now we, or at least I, are asking you to take your report seriously too.

There's no time for dancing around. Let's get on with it please.

Which of your situations would you like to address?

 

[Debater Slayer]

You've claimed the following...

1) You are a person of reason
2) You might kill yourself
3) Your situations are the primary problem

If I've misunderstood any of the above, please correct me. Thank you. I'm just reporting my understanding so far, not trying to put words in your mouth.

The point of discussing your situations would be for you to put the reason and intelligence you are clearly capable of to work. If you're not going to use such tools even to save your own life, what's the point of having them? What would be the point of being an atheist if you were to abandon reason at the most important moment?

Sorry to push, but you have reported a life and death situation, and we're all taken your report seriously. So now we, or at least I, are asking you to take your report seriously too.

There's no time for dancing around. Let's get on with it please.

Which of your situations would you like to address?

The social isolation, then, because it is by far the biggest problem on the list.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I have managed not to kill myself or "be a coward" so far (try telling families of suicide victims that their genuinely struggling loved ones were "cowards" and then tell me what response you get). Millions of people haven't been as fortunate. I don't know whether I will manage not to do it at all, but to narrow the problem down to statements like "situations are not the problem" or "suicide is cowardice" is simplistic, unrealistic, and irresponsible at best.

You're missing the point. If others call me a coward and it stops me from killing myself, they are absolutely not wrong. I'm not bringing this cowardice thing to annoy you. Maybe, برة وبعيد (I say it for "God forbid" to you), if one day you decide to do it for real, you remember it and stop, then it would have worked. Families of suicide victims will of course get angry for calling their children cowards, but that's completely subjective due to their feelings and due to respecting the dead. I do indeed normally call committing suicide a cowardice act, but I wouldn't call those who already committed it cowards.

Think of the bigger picture, don't let your emotions get the best of you. One day a thinker like you could make a change to the world in what you believe in.

DS please. Death is the end of everything. What matters more is not what you die for, but what you can achieve being alive. People here care about you too. Keep that in mind.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

What would be the point of discussing any of them?

DS, have you consented to using this thread for discussing your situations and how they are affecting your health?

 

[Debater Slayer]

DS, have you consented to using this thread for discussing your situations and how they are affecting your health?

I don't mind or I wouldn't have started it in the first place. However, there are certain details that I'm certainly not going to share here.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I don't mind or I wouldn't have started it in the first place. However, there are certain details that I'm certainly not going to share here.

Ok, thank you for clarifying.

 

[Typist]

The social isolation, then, because it is by far the biggest problem on the list.

Ok, thanks.

So maybe we share a situation here. Like you perhaps, I am using the net to find social situations which aren't that available to me in the real world. In my case, I'm relentlessly philosophical, mostly on religion related topics, and most people in the real world don't want to discuss things like atheism for hours every day, because they aren't hopelessly incurable nerds. In my case, I have a happy marriage, and that's usually enough real world contact for me. But if I was 20 something, that wouldn't work at all.

Can we assume you are finding whatever online social situations you require, and by "social isolation" you're referring to a shortage of satisfying real world contact?

Assuming yes, can you tell us a bit more about your real world location? Nothing private or specific, we don't need that. Are you in the Middle East, did I read that right earlier?

Are you native to the Middle East? The reason I ask is that all I know about you is what you write, and you write very well in English. So I'm wondering, are you an American or European who has moved to the Middle East for some reason? The point of the question is to try to understand what challenges might be involved in leaving the Middle East, if that decision was made.

The other and probably easier option would be to find what you're looking for where you are. So what are you looking for? What kind of people and social situations do you prefer?

Have you ever had those situations? Have you experienced a social environment that worked well for you?

Help me out here please. I'm interested in helping if I can, but such an effort assumes you are leading the way, seeking the solutions way more than I am. Thanks.

 

[sun rise]

...
I appreciate that people are trying to help, and I'm really grateful for that. However, I'm criticizing certain statements because I think they are quite incorrect and possibly insulting to many victims of suicide--of whom I'm not one at the moment, thankfully.

I think you're helping other people when you do that. We need feedback from others to learn how our words affect other people and how to become more skillful.

The social isolation, then, because it is by far the biggest problem on the list.

My entire life has been devoted to problem solving of one sort or another. So my mind naturally goes to thinking of what stands in your way of staying alive and solving this problem? What parts of the solution are easy to visualize and what are hard to find a way of doing? How will time help solve the problem? And so forth. I'm not of course thinking you have to tell us, but asking that you think about it.

I don't mind or I wouldn't have started it in the first place. However, there are certain details that I'm certainly not going to share here.

That makes perfect sense to me because I feel the same way.

 

[Mequa]

Social isolation is indeed a killer, in my first-hand experience. The only thing worse is being surrounded by people who are toxic to me.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Ok, thanks.

So maybe we share a situation here. Like you perhaps, I am using the net to find social situations which aren't that available to me in the real world. In my case, I'm relentlessly philosophical, mostly on religion related topics, and most people in the real world don't want to discuss things like atheism for hours every day, because they aren't hopelessly incurable nerds. In my case, I have a happy marriage, and that's usually enough real world contact for me. But if I was 20 something, that wouldn't work at all.

Can we assume you are finding whatever online social situations you require, and by "social isolation" you're referring to a shortage of satisfying real world contact?

Assuming yes, can you tell us a bit more about your real world location? Nothing private or specific, we don't need that. Are you in the Middle East, did I read that right earlier?

Are you native to the Middle East? The reason I ask is that all I know about you is what you write, and you write very well in English. So I'm wondering, are you an American or European who has moved to the Middle East for some reason? The point of the question is to try to understand what challenges might be involved in leaving the Middle East, if that decision was made.

The other and probably easier option would be to find what you're looking for where you are. So what are you looking for? What kind of people and social situations do you prefer?

Have you ever had those situations? Have you experienced a social environment that worked well for you?

Help me out here please. I'm interested in helping if I can, but such an effort assumes you are leading the way, seeking the solutions way more than I am. Thanks.

1) Yes, I don't have nearly enough satisfying personal contact. (I don't like the term, "real-world contact" because the Internet is in the real world too, you know. ) I'm in the Middle East, so I have only come out as an atheist to a few people—three people, to be specific. Even my close family don't know about my lack of belief. I don't find nearly enough like-minded company as a result, and I think at least part of that comes down to the fact that like-minded people are most likely hiding their lack of belief as well.

Another issue is that most people I meet hold extremely homophobic and sexist beliefs, so I find that no matter how much I try to treat them normally without paying much attention to that, I can't. I can't overlook someone's beliefs when they think that engaging in homosexuality is a capital crime. I can't overlook people's beliefs when they think that women are less rational than men and that men are the "protectors" of women because men are supposedly stronger and more logically inclined than women, and those are just two examples. There are many other beliefs that I can't ignore when dealing with people.

2) I'm in the Middle East, yes, and I'm a native Middle Easterner. I have never been outside the Middle East either. What I'm looking for is like-minded company with whom I can be comfortable expressing myself without restriction. I shouldn't have to walk on eggshells when I talk about what my opinions and values. Like-minded company shouldn't necessarily be comprised of non-believers; I'm fine with being close friends with religious people as long as they are not close-minded or intolerant of atheists. I have a couple of close Christian friends like that, actually.

I haven't been in an environment where I felt like I had that kind of company extensively. Other than the three people I mentioned, no one knows who I really am or what I actually believe. I have tried looking for NGOs or the like where I could find like-minded individuals, but I haven't had any luck so far.

 

[Lyndon]

Do you have access to anti depressant medication?? You don't have to talk about your beliefs with the doctor to get a prescription, I would hope, and that might be the most important thing you can do to fight depression. PS I don't think there is anything cowardly about having suicidal thoughts, I would think it takes a certain amount of bravery to kill oneself, but that doesn't solve the problem, you deserve to live, and you deserve a better life. One thing about Psychiatrists, don't think you have to tell them every thing about yourself, just enough to get the prescriptions you need. You are often the best judge of what works for you, and no doctor is going to know how the medications make you feel, only you are.

 

[Typist]

1) Yes, I don't have nearly enough satisfying personal contact.

Ok, that's helpful to clarify, thanks.

I had the start of an idea last night, that perhaps other members can help us with. A workable compromise between offline and online social activity might be found with services like Skype. Skyping with someone is not that different than sitting across the table from them. So you'd have an experience very similar to offline personal contact, AND the entire globe from which to find friends who match your tastes.

ATTENTION FELLOW MEMBERS: Can you help DS find sites that bring together people who like to make new Skype friends? And/or similar services. Here's a link to get us started.

https://www.google.com/search?q=find+skype+friends&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

2) I'm in the Middle East, yes, and I'm a native Middle Easterner. I have never been outside the Middle East either.

Thanks again, helpful. Ok, given this information, would you consider it more useful to address the problem where you currently are instead of talking about moving? Should we cross moving to another part of the world off the list, or would you like to consider that too?

What I'm looking for is like-minded company with whom I can be comfortable expressing myself without restriction. I shouldn't have to walk on eggshells when I talk about what my opinions and values. Like-minded company shouldn't necessarily be comprised of non-believers; I'm fine with being close friends with religious people as long as they are not close-minded or intolerant of atheists. I have a couple of close Christian friends like that, actually.

Thank you again, this sounds very reasonable, realistic and workable. Ok, if you have already found a few friends of the type you seek, there must be more out there somewhere, let's work on that.

Here's another brainstorming idea, off the top of my head. How about starting a forum called something like "Atheists In The Middle East". You can be completely anonymous as the forum admin, and as you meet people you feel comfortable with you can emerge from anonymity to whatever degree you feel is appropriate. As just one example, you could Skype with some members, without revealing your name or location. Or in some cases you could reveal location and then perhaps open the door to offline contact. Some version of this idea might be a step forward?

You already have admin skills, right? I'm sure we could help you with the technology part if that was needed, so let's not let that be an obstacle.

I haven't been in an environment where I felt like I had that kind of company extensively. Other than the three people I mentioned, no one knows who I really am or what I actually believe. I have tried looking for NGOs or the like where I could find like-minded individuals, but I haven't had any luck so far.

If you are in your teens, twenties, thirties, you have a long life ahead of you full of many opportunities to meet new people and make great friends. A long life, many great friends. That's what's going to happen here, so let's stick with it, and keep going.

 

[Typist]

I don't find nearly enough like-minded company as a result, and I think at least part of that comes down to the fact that like-minded people are most likely hiding their lack of belief as well.

I think you are on to something here. Here's another quick brainstorm in reply.

Perhaps you now think of yourself as a sad victim trapped in a primitive social environment.

How about we change that personal identity to you being the smart brave caring agent of change leader who is going to emerge from isolation in order to help liberate others from the primitive social environment?

Your new mission could be not just to save yourself, but to save all those others who are experiencing what you've experienced.

The point here is, to the degree possible, shift the focus off of you and your situation and on to others and their situation. To the degree you can accomplish that you will become quite popular, because everybody's favorite topic is their own situation.