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Ancient and Modern Creation Stories

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Maybe if you stopped and actually learned some physics you would realize it isn't a circular argument. But it is clear that you aren't interested in understanding. You want to promote your particular strange interpretation of ancient texts.

I´m attacking all issues here from the view of natural philosophy. Modern cosmological science could really benefit a lot from this. But it is clear that you and more other persons are not interested in natural science.

Never mind this seemingly eternal human made "time" discussion.
 

Darkstorn

This shows how unique i am.
I´m attacking all issues here from the view of natural philosophy. Modern cosmological science could really benefit a lot from this. But it is clear that you and more other persons are not interested in natural science.

Never mind this seemingly eternal human made "time" discussion.

It would be a lot more interesting if your arguments were more convincing.

Like, it would help your cause if you didn't show that you don't believe in time. What else do you call the so-called "appearance of progression and cause and effect?" Magic?

Yes, there's human ways to measure time. But that's not the issue. How exactly do you have "motion" without "progression of events?"

How do you get "velocity" in your world view?

I mean, you just constantly stating "time is a man made concept" doesn't actually make it so. You forgot to show it. Your resistance to the concept of time is very suspect considering you never actually explain sufficiently why you have problems with it. You just say you do.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Is this one of those so-called "argumentative methods?"

Because it sure looks like one. Called a non-sequitur.

I.E You are just venting air now.

"Venting air" is much compared to your intrigant nothingness :)
 

Darkstorn

This shows how unique i am.
"Venting air" is much compared to your intrigant nothingness :)

Not in a debate. I make the argument that me being quiet is a better argument for my case than you actually arguing for your case is to yours.

I feel i need to also point out that the tactic of "obfuscating stupidity" doesn't work when one suffers from the Dunning-Kruger effect.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Like, it would help your cause if you didn't show that you don't believe in time.

Obviously you haven´t followed the cause of this discussion, so either get it right or just leave this topic.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Personal as in your comment...
Do you literary believe in this fairy tale level of explanation?

You forgot to quote this sentence in it´s full context. In this way your are very personal.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
It's your thread, if you don't want to debate, i'm not forcing you.
------------
Of course I want to debate if you have some serious mythological or scientific arguments in stead of personal mudd comments.
 
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Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
You people have heard all kinds of creation stories, but what Non-dual Advaita Hinduism offers is unique (people who have visited Hinduism forum might have heard something about it). Advaita believes in a substrate (Brahman) in the universe. It does not consider it as God (though people with God-hangover take it as God). It is never given a gender and always referred as 'it'. It does not even require permanency for this substrate because one of the RigVeda hymns, they say that there is a kinship between existence and non-existence.

Aupmanyav,
Sorry for this very late response. I´ve been much to much occupied in vain dealing with some persons who show no serious and deep interests in this topical matter.

I very much like the Hindu descriptions of the creation. The Trimurti principles and qualities of Brahma the creator, Vishnu the preserver, and Shiva the destroyer fits very well with a number of other cultural stories of creation, in which everything is eternally and cyclically formatted, dissolved and re-formattet.

It is really astonishing how precise our ancestors are in their cosmological perception and understanding. Compared to this ancient intuitive knowledge, modern cosmological science is going far astray in unnatural speculations and this is going to be the downfall of modern science on the long run.

As for the world and universe, that is created in our mind due to thought processes and evolution. Evolution makes us see things in a particular way, though that is not the truth.

I would like to correct this a little bit. When it come to the human mind recognizing "things in evolution", there should not be any "fata morganas" if the mind/spirit is well and clear connected to the principles of Brahma.

But of course, If you define "evolution" as in the theory of evolution as such, there very well can be some illusions if the theory differ from the Brahma principles. At least, the evolution theory is disconnected whit the overall cosmological principles in Trimurti from where even the humans was created in the first place.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Native, Advaita is not necessarily a God-based philosophy (although, as I said, many people take Brahman to be the Supreme God. Even in that case Brahman cannot participate in the affairs of the world. He is supposed to be 'Nirguna', agttributeless, without any desire). Advaita finds it hard to follow the Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva division of labor, which is a Vaishnava theory (people who consider Vishnu as the Supreme God).

Science has not abandoned the idea that the universe may be 'eternal and cyclical, formatted, dissolved and re-formatted'.

"In a closed universe, gravity eventually stops the expansion of the universe, after which it starts to contract until all matter in the universe collapses to a point, a final singularity termed the "Big Crunch", the opposite of the Big Bang." Ultimate fate of the universe - Wikipedia,

"According to the latest cosmological data available, the uncertainties are still too large to discriminate among the three cases w < −1, w = −1, and w > −1." Big Rip - Wikipedia,

Also see Big Crunch - Wikipedia, Big Bounce - Wikipedia,

"if the mind/spirit is well and clear connected to the principles of Brahman".: Now Native, how many people you think will have the understanding of Brahman. I will put the number to be as little as one in a million. That is known as 'enlightenment' (Jnana- knowing), 'nirvana' (without the forest - of wrong ideas), moksha (deliverance - from ignorance). What people will normally experience is not real. Do you see atoms in your finger though it is wholly made up of them? That is how human perception deceives.

As I said, Advaita is a completely different idea than Trimurti. We do not disrespect the deities of other Hindus but we are not obliged to worship them. Perhaps it is your first encounter with a Hindu. Hindu philosophies are many and it takes time to understand them.
 
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Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Native, Advaita is not necessarily a God-based philosophy (although, as I said, many people take Brahman to be the Supreme God. Even in that case Brahman cannot participate in the affairs of the world. He is supposed to be 'Nirguna', agttributeless, without any desire). Advaita finds it hard to follow the Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva division of labor, which is a Vaishnava theory (people who consider Vishnu as the Supreme God).

Personally I don´t interpret Brahma as a god, but as "a principle of/in creation" and the same is the case in the Trimurti description.

Science has not abandoned the idea that the universe may be 'eternal and cyclical, formatted, dissolved and re-formatted'.

"In a closed universe, gravity eventually stops the expansion of the universe, after which it starts to contract until all matter in the universe collapses to a point, a final singularity termed the "Big Crunch", the opposite of the Big Bang." Ultimate fate of the universe - Wikipedia,

I still hold on to the mythical explanation of an eternal creation of formation. dissolution and re-formation in the Universe and NOT of the Universe as such.

As I said, Advaita is a completely different idea than Trimurti. We do not disrespect the deities of other Hindus but we are not obliged to worship them. Perhaps it is your first encounter with a Hindu. Hindu philosophies are many and it takes time to understand them.

From my understanding of ancient cultures and native people, I know that some persons got direct visions and inspiration as a normal and intuitive way of getting cosmic knowledge in order for their culture/tribe to get a prosperous life.

"if the mind/spirit is well and clear connected to the principles of Brahman".: Now Native, how many people you think will have the understanding of Brahman. I will put the number to be as little as one in a million.

Yes I´m aware of this and ny former notion was just a quick one in order to describe the three mentioned principles in creation above.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
From my understanding of ancient cultures and native people, I know that some persons got direct visions and inspiration as a normal and intuitive way of getting cosmic knowledge in order for their culture/tribe to get a prosperous life.
Yes, we all get bright ideas all of a sudden. Sometimes they turn out to be good, sometimes bad. Such ideas have to be checked against day-to-day reality.
 
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Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Yes, we all get bright ideas all of a sudden. Sometimes they turn out to be good, sometimes bad. Such ideas have to be checked against day-to-day reality.

Agreed :) And I also checked some of mine "bright ideas" with modern cosmology :)

BTW: Do you have some thoughts of the Mount Meru myth and it´s astronomical/cosmological meanings? That would be interesting to hear about.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
BTW: Do you have some thoughts of the Mount Meru myth and it´s astronomical/cosmological meanings? That would be interesting to hear about.
Oh sure. Mount Meru is and Indian myth and there are many references to it in our scriptures. Here are some for your perusal:

Cf. Bhāskarâchārya’s Siddhânta Shiromani, (1150 CE), Golādhyâya, Chapter vii., verses 6-7.
“There is a peculiarity at the place, where the latitude is greater than 66° N. Whenever the northern declination of the sun exceeds the complement of the latitude, there will be perpetual day, for such time is that excess continues. Similarly when the southern (declination exceeds), there will be perpetual night. On Meru, therefore there is equal half-yearly perpetual day and night.” Thus if the latitude of a place be 70°, its complement will be 90 - 70 = 20°; and as the sun’s heights above the celestial equator (that is, his declination) is never greater than 23° 28' there will be a continuous day at the place, so long as the declination is greater than 20° and less 23° 28', and there will be a similar continuous night when the sun is in the Southern hemisphere. Paul Du Chaillu mentions that at Nordkyn or North Cape (N. lat. 71° 6'50'') the northernmost place on the continent of Europe, the long night commences on 18th November, and ends on 24th January, lasting in all, for 67 days of twenty-four hours each."

"Mount Meru is the terrestrial North Pole of our astronomers, and the Sûrya-Siddhânta, XII, 67, 6th Century BCE, says: - “At Meru Gods behold the sun after but a single rising during the half of his revolution beginning with Aries.” Now according to Purânas Meru is the home or seat of all the Gods, and the statement about their half year-long night and day is thus easily and naturally explained; and all astronomers and divines have accepted the accuracy of the explanation. The day of the Gods corresponds with the passage of the sun from the vernal to the autumnal equinox, when the sun is visible at the North Pole, or the Meru; and the night with the Southern passage of sun, from the autumnal back to the vernal equinox."

"We shall, therefore, next quote the Mahâbhârata, which gives such a clear description of Mount Meru, the lord of the mountains, as to leave no doubt its being the North Pole, or possessing the Polar characteristics. In chapters 163 and 164 of the Vanaparvan, Arjuna’s visit to the Mount is described in detail and we are therein told, “at Meru the sun and the moon go round from left to right (Pradakshinam) every day and so do all the stars.” Later on the writer informs us: — “The mountain, by its lustre, so overcomes the darkness of night, that the night can hardly be distinguished from the day.” A few verses further, and we find, “The day and the night are together equal to a year to the residents of the place.”

"Passing on, therefore, to the Vedic literature, we find Mount Meru described as the seat of seven Âdityas in the Taittirîya Âranyaka I, 7, 1, (2,000 BCE Approx.), while the eighth Âditya, called Kashyapa is said never to leave the great Meru or Mahâmeru. Kashyapa is further described as communicating light to the seven Âdityas, and himself perpetually illumining the great mountain. It is, however, in the Taittirîya Brâhmana (III, 9, 22, 1), (2,000 BCE Approx.), that we meet with a passage which clearly says, “That which is a year is but a single day of the Gods."

"There is, however, another passage in the Âranyaka (I, 7, 1-6) which throws some light on the nature of these Âdityas.* The names of the suns here given are different. They are: Aroga, Bhrâja, Patara, Patanga, Svarnara, Jyotishîmat, Vibhâsa and Kashyapa; the last of which is said to remain, constantly at the great mount Meru, permanently illumining that region. The other seven suns are said to derive their light from Kashyapa and to be alone visible to man."

"Râmâyana (IV, 40, 64), which mentions Udaya Parvata, or the mountain of sun-rise, and says that on the top of it is the peak Saumanasa, the place where Vishnu’s first step was planted. We are then told that his second step was placed on the summit of Meru; and that “when the sun had circled round Jambudvîpa (Indian sub-continent) by the north, he is mostly visible on that lofty peak.”
Source: "Arctic Home in Vedas", BG Tilak
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Oh sure. Mount Meru is and Indian myth and there are many references to it in our scriptures. Here are some for your perusal:

Thank you very much indeed :)

I was in advance aware of the polar interpretation but was curious to read the full texts, and to me it seems that there could be some different and alternative interpretations when one compare your examples in the sentences.
1)
Cf. Bhāskarâchārya’s Siddhânta Shiromani, (1150 CE), Golādhyâya, Chapter vii., verses 6-7.
“There is a peculiarity at the place, where the latitude is greater than 66° N. Whenever the northern declination of the sun exceeds the complement of the latitude, there will be perpetual day, for such time is that excess continues. Similarly when the southern (declination exceeds), there will be perpetual night. On Meru, therefore there is equal half-yearly perpetual day and night.” Thus if the latitude of a place be 70°, its complement will be 90 - 70 = 20°; and as the sun’s heights above the celestial equator (that is, his declination) is never greater than 23° 28' there will be a continuous day at the place, so long as the declination is greater than 20° and less 23° 28', and there will be a similar continuous night when the sun is in the Southern hemisphere. Paul Du Chaillu mentions that at Nordkyn or North Cape (N. lat. 71° 6'50'') the northernmost place on the continent of Europe, the long night commences on 18th November, and ends on 24th January, lasting in all, for 67 days of twenty-four hours each."

I have no problems with this astronomical interpretation and explanation.

2
"Mount Meru is the terrestrial North Pole of our astronomers, and the Sûrya-Siddhânta, XII, 67, 6th Century BCE, says: - “At Meru Gods behold the sun after but a single rising during the half of his revolution beginning with Aries.” Now according to Purânas Meru is the home or seat of all the Gods, and the statement about their half year-long night and day is thus easily and naturally explained; and all astronomers and divines have accepted the accuracy of the explanation. The day of the Gods corresponds with the passage of the sun from the vernal to the autumnal equinox, when the sun is visible at the North Pole, or the Meru; and the night with the Southern passage of sun, from the autumnal back to the vernal equinox."

I have more doubts here. The half year-long night and day is obviously determined by the observation of the star constellation as such and not specifically by the Sun, which of course isn´t observable in the night time. We are then dealing with the Earth annual orbital motion around the Sun divided in two half seasons.

This here is indeed problematic, quote: "when the sun is visible at the North Pole, or the Meru;"!?

The sun isn´t visible at the north pole at all. What then? Should this be textual true, either the Sun refers to another light or the Mount Meru´s polar connection is confused for another center of motion. What do you suggest here?

3.
"Passing on, therefore, to the Vedic literature, we find Mount Meru described as the seat of seven Âdityas in the Taittirîya Âranyaka I, 7, 1, (2,000 BCE Approx.), while the eighth Âditya, called Kashyapa is said never to leave the great Meru or Mahâmeru. Kashyapa is further described as communicating light to the seven Âdityas, and himself perpetually illumining the great mountain. It is, however, in the Taittirîya Brâhmana (III, 9, 22, 1), (2,000 BCE Approx.), that we meet with a passage which clearly says, “That which is a year is but a single day of the Gods."

In the tenth chapter of Rigveda, it is mentioned that - Mārtanda - Wikipedia

Eight are the Sons of Aditi who from her body sprang to life.
With seven she went to meet the Gods she cast Martanda far away.
So with her Seven Sons Aditi went forth to meet the earlier age.
She brought Martanda thitherward to spring to life and die again.

---------------------
What are the qualities and attributes of these seven (8) Âdityas and which goddess of birth is at play here?

More problems: If "Kashyapa is said never to leave the great Meru" (= the North Pole), how can this following sentence be true and logical: "Kashyapa is further described as communicating light to the seven Âdityas, and himself perpetually illumining the great mountain".

Does the North Pole communicate light in itself and to the seven Âdityas? And is the North Pole "illuminating the great mountain" i.e. itself?

4
"Râmâyana (IV, 40, 64), which mentions Udaya Parvata, or the mountain of sun-rise, and says that on the top of it is the peak Saumanasa, the place where Vishnu’s first step was planted. We are then told that his second step was placed on the summit of Meru; and that “when the sun had circled round Jambudvîpa (Indian sub-continent) by the north, he is mostly visible on that lofty peak.”

How can "Udaya Parvata, or the mountain of sun-rise" be connected to the North Pole i.e. Mount Meru? The North Pole area isn´t even visible in the sunshine.

This here is inconsistent indeed: " . . when the sun had circled round Jambudvîpa (Indian sub-continent) by the north, he is mostly visible on that lofty peak".

Does the Sun circle around an Indian subcontinent?
---------------
After a 35 year period of studying ancient Myths of Creation and Comparative Mythology and Cosmology, I´m convinced that the stories of creation and its astronomical and cosmological extend is much underestimated - and even a bit forgotten by most scholars and the telling itself is somewhat fragmented compared to it´s original meaning.

I have my own (or hopefully not my own alone, but a collective) explanation of this issue. More on this later.

Well, what are your reply on my questions and arguments here? I´ll await these and then we can make the further elaborations.

Edit
Note: I´m of course NOT making any personal critique here. Ì´m just asking into the texts and its logics.
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
I still hold on to the mythical explanation of an eternal creation of formation. dissolution and re-formation in the Universe

Some still hold on to the mythical concept of Santa Claus. Most outgrow it.

From my understanding of ancient cultures and native people, I know that some persons got direct visions and inspiration as a normal and intuitive way of getting cosmic knowledge in order for their culture/tribe to get a prosperous life.

Peyote - pathway to the heavens.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Note: I´m of course NOT making any personal critique here. Ì´m just asking into the texts and its logics.
I understand, Native. And here are my explanations. Basically that RigVeda is the oldest Aryan scripture. Then there are those explanations written around 2,000 BCE and further to that even newer scriptures, like Mahabharata, Ramayana and Puranas. The later scriptures, did not know or forgot the import of references in RigVeda.

You need to parse the statement at #2. The first part was written in 6th Century BCE. The Purana accounts date to a later period. They were written in India and by that time, Aryans had forgotten the earlier meaning of Mt. Meru. What Surya-siddhanta says is true. The sun is not visible at North pole during the duration of long Arctic night. The Aryans divided the year into two parts. From Vernal Equinox to Autumnal equinox, it was the day of the Gods, or more correctly the path of Gods - Devayana. From Autumnal Equinox back to Vernal Equinox was considered the dark half of the year, the path of the ancestors - Pitriyana. The Aryans originated from sub-Arctic region and not exactly north pole. So with them, it was not exactly a six month day and six month night. The night was stated to be approximately two-monhths long, but never more than 100 days. There were local variations according to the latitude of the place, the night had no fixed duration. The 'Ati-Ratra' (Greater Night) still is a part of Hindu rituals, though its meaning has changed. In the Aryans land, it was a long ritual for the whole long night, with much eating of sacrficed animals and copious drinking of their 'Soma' concoction.

Nice that you talk about the Adityas. That is one of the oldest beliefs of Aryans and probably goes back to 4,000 BCE. Their mother is supposed to be 'Aditi', the father is not mentioned. Out of the eight, seven were fully formed, but the eighth, Martanda (Mrit+Anda=Dead Egg), was not fully formed. The legend says that Prajapati, the Supreme God, created mankind out of Martanda to be born and die again and again. Actually the reference is to the period before the Arctic night, when the light of the sun would slowly fade. As you know, this is a near universal myth, more so in the Indo-European region. There is a clear mention of when that happens. In Indian mythology, it was the fortieth day of the of the Sharada season (Autumn).

Tilak states, "Fortunately for us this conclusion is remarkably borne out by an important passage preserved in the RigVeda, which gives us, what may be called, the very date of the commencement of Indra’s conflict with Vṛitra (one of the demons of darkness), though the true bearing of the passage has yet remained unexplained owing to the absence of the real key to its meaning. In II, 12, 11, we read, “Indra found Shambara (another demon) dwelling on the mountains (in) chatvârimshyâm sharadi.” "For Sharad is derived from shri (Eng. Shrivel), to wither or waste away, and the word thus primarily signifies the “season of decay or withering”; and the decay here referred to is evidently the-decay of the power of the sun, .."

"He who discovered in the fortieth autumn Śambara as he dwelt among the mountains;
Who slew the Dragon putting forth his vigour, the demon lying there, He, men, is Indra."
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 2: HYMN XII. Indra.

"But what is still more remarkable is that just as the RigVeda gives us the exact date of the commencement of the battle between Indra and Shambara, so Celtic myths record the exact date of the first battle of Moytura and also of the fight between Labraid of the Swift Hand on the Sword, king of Mag Mell, the Irish Hades, whom Cuchulainn goes to assist, and his enemies called the Men of Fidga. They were fought on the eve of November, “when the Celtic year began with the ascendancy of the powers of darkness.” Prof. Rhys further points out that the ancient Norse year was similar in character. The great feast of the Norsemen occupied three days called the Winter Nights and began on the Saturday falling on or between the 11th and the 18th of October; and according to Dr. Vigfusson this feast marked the beginning of the ancient year of the Norsemen. The old Norse year thus appears to have been shorter by a few days than the Celtic one; but Prof. Rhys accounts for this difference on the ground “that winter, and therefore the year commences earlier in Scandinavia than in the continental center from which the Celts dispersed themselves.”

'Udaya Parvata' too is mentioned in a later scripture. Ramayana is not an Aryan scripture, it is an indegenous Indian legend belonging to pre-Aryan era. The legend was put in a versified form in Sanskrit by Sage Valmiki. The ancient account is in RigVeda only. As I said, by that time, Aryans had no remembrance of their Arctic days. The RigVedic references were totally misunderstood.

The seven Adityas (suns) and the eighth unformed Aditya were the months when the sun was visible in the sky, on the two sides of these eight months were month-long dawns (Ushas) and corresponding dusks (Sandhya). These made the two-month long old Roman year which was changed by Emperor Nemo into a 12-month year by addition of January and February around 700 BCE. These ten months along with the two-month night made the whole year.

Kindly note that my quotes are from the book, "Arctic Home in Vedas" by BG Tilak, a very well documented book.
 
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