Ancient and Modern Creation Stories

[Native]

Some still hold on to the mythical concept of Santa Claus. Most outgrow it.

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Some participants in this Forum ignores the topic and comment on persons.

 

[Native]

Thanks for your elaborations

Your sentence #1

They were written in India and by that time, Aryans had forgotten the earlier meaning of Mt. Meru.

This is also a main point for me - more on this later on. Otherwise I agree in the Solar seasonal descriptions.

Sentence #2

Nice that you talk about the Adityas. That is one of the oldest beliefs of Aryans and probably goes back to 4,000 BCE. Their mother is supposed to be 'Aditi', the father is not mentioned.

Regarding Aditi :
"In the Vedas, Aditi (Sanskrit: अदिति "limitless")[1] is mother of the gods (devamata) and all twelve zodiacal spirits from whose cosmic matrix, the heavenly bodies were born. As celestial mother of every existing form and being, the synthesis of all things, she is associated with space (akasa) and with mystic speech (Vāc). She may be seen as a feminized form of Brahma and associated with the primal substance (mulaprakriti) in Vedanta.

Here we deal with the prime concept of the cosmic Mother Goddess which creates the 7 (8) (here 12) zodiacal Adityas mentioned in connection with Mount Meru.

Out of the eight, seven were fully formed, but the eighth, Martanda (Mrit+Anda=Dead Egg), was not fully formed. The legend says that Prajapati, the Supreme God, created mankind out of Martanda to be born and die again and again.

Again we have a direct line to the primeval creation story and then I think Martanda don´t represent the North Pole/Mount because in the very beginning of the creation story , the Solar System wasn´t yet formed.

Actually the reference is to the period before the Arctic night, when the light of the sun would slowly fade. As you know, this is a near universal myth, more so in the Indo-European region. There is a clear mention of when that happens. In Indian mythology, it was the fortieth day of the of the Sharada season (Autumn).

Immediately I notice a mix up of the Solar seasonal rhythms which is correct, and the explanation of the creation story as commented above. The creation story is indeed also an Universal myth.

Sentence #3

Tilak states, "Fortunately for us this conclusion. . . i

No immediate comments

Sentence #4

"He who discovered in the fortieth autumn Śambara as he dwelt among the mountains;
Who slew the Dragon putting forth his vigour, the demon lying there, He, men, is Indra."
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 2: HYMN XII. Indra.

Which Dragon is dwelling "on the mountains" and which mythical mountains?

Sentence #5

"But what is still more remarkable is that just as the RigVeda gives us the exact date of the commencement of the battle between Indra and Shambara, so Celtic myths record the exact date of the first battle of Moytura and also of the fight between Labraid of the Swift Hand on the Sword, king of Mag Mell, the Irish Hades, whom Cuchulainn goes to assist, and his enemies called the Men of Fidga . . .

Whether it all deals with the Solar seasonal changes or the specific creation myth, both are of course the same astronomical and cosmological telling which can be compared with myths all over the world.

A mythical fight can be understood on several levels, but never mind here.

Sentence #6

'Udaya Parvata' too is mentioned in a later scripture. Ramayana is not an Aryan scripture, it is an indegenous Indian legend belonging to pre-Aryan era. The legend was put in a versified form in Sanskrit by Sage Valmiki. The ancient account is in RigVeda only. As I said, by that time, Aryans had no remembrance of their Arctic days. The RigVedic references were totally misunderstood.

In generally: Mythical references are misunderstood all over the places in books and encyclopedia as long as the interpreters authors and scholars lacks mythical, astronomical or cosmological insights.

Discussion:
IMO there is no doubt that ancient cultures noticed the celestial poles on both hemispheres and had these (Earth axial directions) as "centers of motion", symbolized a "celestial pillars of the Earth".

As mentioned earlier, we have specific notions of the creation story with Aditi, the Adityas, the Supreme God, creating mankind out of Martanda, (Mrit+Anda=Dead Egg), which, to my mind, is connected to Mount Meru. That is: Mount Meru hardly cannot represent the North Pole in this connection and stage of creation.

My temporary perception and conclusion:
As mentioned above, ancient cultures had noticed the two axial celestial rotation centers, but there is also another center in the ancient myths of creation, namely the Milky Way center, around which "the Sun and the planets orbits as one unit" as it is told in Hindu myths.

I am fairly sure that Mount Meru represents the Milky Way center which is the center of creation in the ancient known part of the Universe.

If so, the ancient myths are cosmologically hugely underestimated and I´m sure that all kinds of interpretative confusions takes place because scholars confuse the central light of the Milky Way with the Sun and the Earth celestial poles with the axis of the rotating Milky Way and so forth and so on.

I can elaborate further on the creative process in the Milky Way center if you like

I have two links for you to look at here:
The Milky Way Mother Goddess
The Milky Way Father God

Until later

 

[Aupmanyav]

Regarding Aditi :
"In the Vedas, Aditi (Sanskrit: अदिति "limitless") is mother of the gods (devamata) and all twelve zodiacal spirits from whose cosmic matrix, the heavenly bodies were born. As celestial mother of every existing form and being, the synthesis of all things, she is associated with space (akasa) and with mystic speech (Vāc). She may be seen as a feminized form of Brahma and associated with the primal substance (mulaprakriti) in Vedanta.: "Finally, in other late hymns of the RV. we find the deities Aditi and Prajapati identified not only with all the gods, but with nature as well." - A Vedic Reader (Excerpts). That and that Aditi was the daughter of Daksha and wife of Sage Kashyapa was a later development. In older hymns, Aditi was simply the mother of Adityas. And Adityas are not Zodiac. Their number varied from seven in the beginning to eight, then to ten and finally to 12. They represented the sun in the months that sun was visible. As the Aryans moved South, the number of dityas increased. Martanda was simply the description of the sun in the eighth month (starting from Vernal equinox) when the sun's powers failed.
* For meanings of Aditi, see this: Sanskrit Dictionary for Spoken Sanskrit

Which Dragon is dwelling "on the mountains" and which mythical mountains?: The most common name of the demon/dragon is Vritra. He can be taken as a dragon because he was mentioned in RigVeda as a serpent. For killing it, Indra was known as Vritraghna (killer of Vritra). You have the same story in Avesta where the serpent is known as Azi Dahak. Avesta too has a Verethragna (similar to Vritraghna), but the killer of Azi Dahak was Thraetona. But in Vedas many more names other than Vritra are mentioned. They include Vaala (Vales), Pipru, Kuvaya, Arbuda, Shambara, etc. The abode of these demons was the underworld sea where they would hide the sun during the long Arctic night and in the night sky. After the killing of these demons, the sun would again appear in the sky, the rivers will start to flow and the greenery would appear. This would happen on the day of Vernal equinox when the Aryans began their new year and the yearly sacrificial cycle.

Aryans did not measure time according to zodiac in that period. They used the 27 asterisms (Nakshtras). 'Aditi' period is the oldest of them of which there is some mention. This was prior to 4,000 BCE, when the sun rose in the asterism of Castor and Pollux (Punarvasu in Sanskrit).

The legend of Aditi:
There are, however, some indications about the oldest position of Punarvasu preserved in the sacrificial literature. The presiding deity of Punarvasu is Aditi, and we are told in the Aitareya Brahmana i. 7, and the Taittiriya SanliiAvi. 1. 5. 1, that Aditi has been blessed with a boon that all sacrifices must commence and end with her. The story begins with the statement that the Sacrifice (the mysterious sacrificial personage) went away from the gods. The gods were then unable to perform any further ceremonies, and did not know where it (the sacrifice) had gone to; and it was Aditi that helped them, in this state, to find out the proper commencement of the sacrifice. This clearly means, if it can mean anything, that before this time sacrifices were performed at random, but it was at this time resolved and fixed to commence them from Aditi. Aditi was thus the oldest and the first commencement of the sacrifice or the year In the Vajasaneyi Sanhita 4. 19, Aditi is said to be 'ubhaya-shirshni' (double-headed) and the commentators interpret it to mean that the two termini of the sacrifices, which began and ended with Aditi, are the two heads here alluded to.

Yes, Milky Way too is important for Hindu myths, legends and deities. But it is late today. I will write about that tomorrow. So, for the time, good night to you. [/QUOTE]

 

[Native]

Yes, Milky Way too is important for Hindu myths, legends and deities. But it is late today. I will write about that tomorrow. So, for the time, good night to you.

Fine, I´ll await your descriptions of the Milky Way myths

 

[gnostic]

Which Dragon is dwelling "on the mountains" and which mythical mountains?: The most common name of the demon/dragon is Vritra. He can be taken as a dragon because he was mentioned in RigVeda as a serpent. For killing it, Indra was known as Vritraghna (killer of Vritra). You have the same story in Avesta where the serpent is known as zi Dahak. Avesta too has a Verethragna (similar to Vritraghna), but the killer of Azi Dahak was Thraetona. But in Vedas many more names other than Vritra are mentioned. They include Vaala (Vales), Pipru, Kuvaya, Arbuda, Shambara, etc. The abode of these demons was the underworld sea where they would hide the sun during the long Arctic night and in the night sky. After the killing of these demons, the sun would again appear in the sky, the rivers will start to flow and the greenery would appear. This would happen on the day of Vernal equinox when the Aryans began their new year and the yearly sacrificial cycle.

This sounds a lot like the myth of Re, on his Solar Barque, which he sailed across the sky during the day.

But at the western horizon, like a setting sun, Re and his crew would enter the Netherworld (Underworld), to fight all sort of demons (most in the forms of either crocodile or hippopotamus, including Apep or Apophis, the serpent demon. After the climatic beheading of Apep, his Barque would reappear in the eastern horizon, to repeat his journey the next day.

But each night, he and his crewmen would repeat battle and fight the same demons of the previous night, only to fight Apep again.

The cycle would repeat each new day.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But each night, he and his crewmen would repeat battle and fight the same demons of the previous night, only to fight Apep again. The cycle would repeat each new day.

Very much like that. The only difference is that Indra/Thraetona/Herakles and the various Irish/Celtic/Norse/Germanic/Slavic mythical personages did not have to labor each day of the year to fight the demons/serpents/Titan. They did it once in a year. So, one myth is from sub-Arctic regions which had the more frightening long, cold, dark Arctic night; and other is from temperate regions.

"Keep off the she-wolf and the wolf, O Urmya, keep the thief away; Easy be thou for us to pass."
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXVII. Night. (Hymn to Night, RigVeda)

Pictorial representation of the RigVedic belief about the long Arctic night.

 

[Native]

This sounds a lot like the myth of Re, on his Solar Barque, which he sailed across the sky during the day.

Can you observe this scenario on the day Sky? The Sun being transported over the Sky by a ship?

But at the western horizon, like a setting sun, Re and his crew would enter the Netherworld (Underworld),

The "Netherworld"and "Underworld"? where is that? Why not just describe this world as the southern hemisphere or "under the horizon"?

BTW: Why don´t you quote the Re Solar Barge text into the full context as here: Re and Hathor?

Exerpt:
"Sky goddess.
Many passages in ancient Egyptian funerary texts mention Hathor as being in the sky. She was given the epithets "mistress of the sky" and "mistress of the stars", and she was said to dwell in the sky with Ra and other gods who personified the sun. Egyptians thought of the sky as a body of water through which the sun god sailed, and they connected it with the waters from which, according to their creation myths, the sun emerged at the beginning of time".

Why is Re mentioned in the connection with Hathor? This is why:
"Hathor had a complex relationship with Ra. At times she is the eye of Ra and considered his daughter, but she is also considered Ra's mother. She absorbed this role from another cow goddess 'Mht wrt' ("Great flood") who was the mother of Ra in a creation myth and carried him between her horns:

Hathor, along with the goddess Nut, was associated with the Milky Way Galaxy during the third millennium B.C. when, during the fall and spring equinoxes, it aligned over and touched the earth where the sun rose and fell. The four legs of the celestial cow represented Nut or Hathor could, in one account, be seen as the pillars on which the sky was supported with the stars on their bellies constituting the milky way on which the solar barque of Ra, representing the sun, sailed".

Logical questions for you:
1. Does the Sun moves trough figures in the Sky which looks like a big Cow or a big female looking figure?
2. Where do you observe this scenario on the Sky?
3. Can you at all observe any figures in the day time Sky when the Sun is shining?
4. And what are the "complex relationship between Re (Ra) and Hathor"?
5. Try to explain this family connection: At times she (Hathor) is the eye of Ra and considered his daughter, but she is also considered Ra's mother.

6. The conclusive explanation:
The Egyptian Goddess Hathor resembles the Milky Ways "she" is closely connected to the Egyptian God, Re/Ra who is sailing on Hathor´s figure which is, quote: "constituting the milky way on which the solar barque of Ra, representing the sun, sailed".

When describing a myth which deals with figures in the night Sky i.e. the Milky Way figure, this figure of course cannot be connected with the Sun,

There is of course NO WAY Re = "The Sun", can be the father of Hathor, the Milky Way Goddess: It is NOT the Sun which formed the Milky Way,

It is in fact the other way around: The central LIGHT Re/RA/Amun-Re/Amun-Ra in the Milky Way creates the Milky Way and thus also the Solar System. ONLY in this sense can the family connection between Re (etc.) and Hathor be logically explained, even with terms belonging to modern cosmology.

In scholarly circuits the is a huge confusion between interpreting the terms of Re/Ra and Amun-Re/Amun-Ra who represent the central light of the Milky Way, but this is interpreted as the Sun in our Solar System.

The cause of these scholarly and interpretative confusions of course derives from the fact that the Milky Way Mythology and it´s Cosmological implications are suppressed and historical forgotten and also the cause of modern persons are having HUGE problems of understanding what ancient myths are all about, namely the Story of Creation

When scholars have no idea of a "fiery light" of creation in center of the Milky Way, the only other option is to interpret this "LIGHT", is the Sun. And this interpretative confusion takes place all over in books and encyclopedia, which of course just is repeated by laymen all over without asking logical questions or without even pondering over the most obvious interpretative inconsistencies.

End of this lecture

 

[Aupmanyav]

How was Milky way created:

In Hindu mythology, Saramā is a mythological being referred to as the female dog of the gods, or Deva-shuni. She first appears in one of Hinduism's earliest texts, the Rig Veda, in which she helps the god-king Indra to recover divine cows/rays o the sun stolen by the Panis, a class of demons. Here is the full (but not the only one) legend.

"The Panis tried to coax Sarama by offering her milk which she drank. On her return she denied having seen the cows. Rudra, thereupon kicked her and she vomited the milk. Now the mention of milk at once suggests the idea that it must be the milk in the galaxy on each side of which the two dogs are stationed. In Rig. iv. 57. 5, Shunasirau are invoked in order that they may pour down upon the earth the milk, "which they make in heaven". Prof. Max Muller records a suggestion that Shunasirau, here spoken of, may be a very old name for the Dog-star, and with its derivative Sairya would give us the etymon of Sirius I. In Rig, vii. 55. 2, the Vastoshpati, "the guardian of the house" in the form of a dog, is invoked and described as bright and red Sarameya on whose jaws spears seem to glitter, a description which answers so well with the appearance of Sirius, that with what has been said above we may at once identify the Sarameya with the Dog-star."

 

[Native]

Thanks for this

How was Milky way creted:
In Hindu mythology, Samara is a mythological being referred to as the female dog of the gods, or Deva-shuni. She first appears in one of Hinduism's earliest texts, the Rig Veda, in which she helps the god-king Indra to recover divine cows/rays o the sun stolen by the Panis, a class of demons. Here is the full (but not the only one) legend.

The female dog of the gods? Helping to recover divine cows/rays of the "Sun"? So what are the commonalities here? Dogs having many tits in order to nourish many puppets? The nourishing milk of cows? The white colour of milk in generally, which looks like the colour of the Milky Way? A goddess which is is connected with golden rays?

Now the mention of milk at once suggests the idea that it must be the milk in the galaxy on each side of which the two dogs are stationed. In Rig. iv. 57. 5, Shunasirau are invoked in order that they may pour down upon the earth the milk, "which they make in heaven".

This makes all sense indeed, also in connection with my thoughts above.

Prof. Max Muller records a suggestion that Shunasirau, here spoken of, may be a very old name for the Dog-star, and with its derivative Sairya would give us the etymon of Sirius

A nice try, professor But this holds no answers to the full context in the myth. But what can scholars do when they don´t connect and include the mythical context to the correct celestial object? Of course there is a linguistic connection between "a milky Way dog" and the dog-name of Sirius, but the mythical contexts fits more logically to the Milky Way.

In Rig, vii. 55. 2, the Vastoshpati, "the guardian of the house" in the form of a dog, is invoked and described as bright and red Sarameya on whose jaws spears seem to glitter, a description which answers so well with the appearance of Sirius, that with what has been said above we may at once identify the Sarameya with the Dog-star."

This STILL doesn´t fit the full context in the myth.

As your thread title says: This is all about the appearance of the Milky Way and it´s mythical description with natural symbols. To me, there is no doubts that Saramā represents the Milky Way Mother Goddess, just like Hathor in Egypt, Aphrodite in Greek myths and Venus in the Roman mythology etc. etc. which very satisfyingly confirms the fact that all cultures have the similar explanation of the creation story.

Thanks again

 

[tayla]

The big question for me in this thread, is whether ancient and modern stories tells the same basic story and which of these stories are the most natural and logical.

Doesn't seem to me they have much in common other than the ideas: (1) that natural forces of nature are "gods" and, (2) that things they didn't understand occurred via agency by these "gods". Probably later people who heard earlier stories incorporated ideas into their own stories.

Anyway, this seems to me to be a good framework for studying ancient myths and stories. The alternative is to assume these people got revealed knowledge and then try to explain the discrepancies between the various stories.

 

[gnostic]

There is of course NO WAY Re = The Sun, can be the father of Hathor, the Milky Way Goddess: it is NOT the Sun which formed the Milky Way, That is: Re/Ra/Amun-Re/Amun-Ra DON´T represent the Sun in our solar System.

Good grief.

Look, I have read enough ancient Egyptian literature, to know inconsistencies and contradictions exist in myths, especially in the genealogy of the Egyptian pantheon.

Astronomically, and I am talking science here, not myths.

Yes, the Milky Way is older than the Solar System.

But in Egyptian myths, the order of creation doesn’t have to match the science of physical cosmology, and the ordering of parent and child don’t have to be order of the Milky Way before Sun or Solar System.

You putting words that I didn’t or write again.

Again, I have read enough myths, both creation and funerary myths, to know some traditions make Hathor as Re’s daughter, some traditions as his mother, and still others as his wife and consort.

You don’t need to explain that to me, because I already know the different variations. So all you are doing, is making and attacking strawman.

Again, I know that she was sky goddess and the Milky Way, but I also know as sun goddess. Again, you not telling me anything new, so more of your bloody strawman.

But if you think the sun god Re, cannot be father of sky goddess or goddess of the Milky Way, because that not how science work, you are bloody forgetting that Egyptian myths isn’t science.

Do you understand that?

I don’t think that you do.

Contradictions and inconsistencies occurred, especially in lineage of the gods. If you are trying to match science and myth together, you are bound to bloody fail.

Is that all you do with you mighty comparative mythology studies, think of stupid New Age things to write about here? Think up straw man, attack it and think you have won the argument?

Ok, here is the inconsistencies of Greek myths here:

According to Hesiod, the Earth came to be from Chaos, which is indescribable, and from her, her son was born, Ouranos, the heaven or sky god, the sea Pontus.

Then from her mating with own son Ouranos, she became the mother of the Titans, which include the god of light and sun, Hyperion. And Hyperion was father of sun god Helios, moon goddess Selene and dawn goddess Eos.

So essentially Gaea (Earth) exist before the sky, Milky Way or universe (her son), and before the sun (her son/grandson (Hyperion) and her grandson/great-grandson (Helios)).

As you can see that doesn’t match up modern physical cosmology. The sun is older than the earth, but only by tens of millions of years older.

And you have brought up Norse myths, particularly regarding to Midgard (Earth) and Midgard Serpent.

But according to Snorri, the Earth, sky, and ocean were created from the dead body parts of the first frost giant, Ymir. Asgard (heavens) and other worlds were created after Midgard.

And according to Snorri, the sun goddess Sol and moon god were children of giantess Night and one of the little known Asgardian.

So the Norse have Earth before Sun, which is not consistent with science.

Are you getting my points here, Native?

Who fathers who, or who mothers who, in any myths, don’t really matter in the real world, because they are all myths.

What have they been teaching you in comparative myths?

• Ignorance?
• Trying to make “logic” from illogical myths?
• Making up strawman?

 

[Native]

More on this subject

How was Milky way created:

Etymology and epithets
"Orientalist Max Müller suggests that the word Sarama may mean "the runner", with the stem originating from the Sanskrit root sar ("to go"), but he is unable to account for the second part of the name, ama. Professor Monier-Williams translates Sarama as "the fleet one". The etymological treatise Nirukta by Yaska mentions that Sarama derives her name from her quick movement".

It is my firm conviction that the Mother Goddess resides on the southern hemisphere (The Mytho-Cosmological "Underwold") where "she" resembles the Milky Way contours.

When looking at the contours of the Milky Way, this figure is seemingly revolving around the southern celestial pole axis because of the Earth rotation. If/when imagined as a great woman in the Sky, "she" walks/goes/runs around the pole.

Still if imagined as a woman, the center of the galaxy in the Star Constellation of Sagittarius, is located in the womb area of this female imagined figure, causing the mythical term of "The Cosmic Womb" of creation. This also indicates/confirms that the creation in our galaxy primarily takes place here and from here everything in our galaxy is formed and delivered out in the galactic surroundings.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Vedic/Hindu names: Castor & Pollux (Punarvasu), Aldebaran (Rohini), Procyon (Vena), Serius (Shvāna - Dog), the three Orionis (Invakā - Arrow), the whole of Orion constellation (Mrigashiras - Antelope's head), Canis Major (Mrigavyādha - Deer killer), Bete.guese (ārdra)

The "Netherworld"and "Underworld"? where is that? Why not just describe this world as the southern hemisphere or "under the horizon"?

A nice try, professor But this holds no answers to the full context in the myth. But what can scholars do when they don´t connect and include the mythical context to the correct celestial object? Of course there is a linguistic connection between "a milky Way dog" and the dog-name of Sirius, but the mythical contexts fits more logically to the Milky Way.

Do we know where heaven is? If not, how can we know where 'netherworld' is? It is sure a dark, watery world., where the demons live. After Indra replaced him from the physical world, Varuna (Ourānos) took over as the king of 'netherworld'. It is certainly not the Southern hemisphere. Because if it was, then it would prove the existence of heaven in Northern hemisphere. We are not talking geography here.

You may not find the equivalent of an Egyptian myth in the Vedas. The Milky way was the path to heaven. The Aryans even saw a ship in it (nāvam devam - the divine ship, Argo Navis - though the sun did not travel by ship). It was guarded by the progeny of Sarama (Sarameyas), Canis Major and Canis Minor, referred in RigVeda as Shvāna. A little later than 4,000 BCE, the sun rose in the asterism of Orion. The beginning of the year on vernl equinox and appearance of sun meant the the disappearance of the Dog Star. In one hymn, the seasons which were resting during the twelve intercalary days (Dwadashahas) had woken up in spring and ask as to who has woken them up? The Dwadashahas said it was the Dog (Shvāna), who had woken them up.

"When ye had slept your fill, ye Ṛbhus, thus ye asked, O thou whom naught may hide, who now hath wakened us?
The goat declared the hound to be your wakener. That day, in a full year, ye first unclosed our eyes."
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda Book 1: HYMN CLXI. Ṛbhus.

"It has been claimed to be related to the Sanskrit word 'sarvarā', used as an epithet of one of the dogs of Yama, from a Proto-Indo-European word *k̑érberos, meaning "spotted". Lincoln (1991), among others, critiques this etymology. Lincoln notes a similarity between Cerberus and the Norse mythological dog Garmr, relating both names to a Proto-Indo-European root *ger- "to growl" (perhaps with the suffixes -*m/*b and -*r). However, as Ogden observes, this analysis actually requires Kerberos and Garmr to be derived from two different Indo-European roots (*ker- and *gher- respectively), and so does not actually establish a relationship between the two names."
Cerberus - Wikipedia

"And those two dogs of thine, Yama, the watchers, four-eyed, who look on men and guard the pathway; .."
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN XIV. Yama., Verse 11.

The Zoroastrians also had the same myth. Milky way being the bridge between heaven and hell - Chinwat, and being guarded by the same two dogs.

No, Native. Do not jump to conclusions. Sarama is not the mother Goddess. There is a lot more which I am going to explain, slowly and slowly, (as a hint) Milky Way as the celestial representation of the most beloved but now nearly extinct river of Aryans - Saraswati, also the Goddess of all learning. Also 'The Waters', or the God Apah of Vedas and the Zoroastrian Aban. "The word has many cognates in archaic European toponyms, e.g., Mess-apia, and perhaps also Avon, from Old Brythonic abona or Welsh afon (pronounced ˈavɔn), both meaning 'river'." - Ap (water) - Wikipedia

 

[Aupmanyav]

The female dog of the gods? Helping to recover divine cows/rays of the "Sun"? So what are the commonalities here? .. The nourishing milk of cows? The white colour of milk in generally, which looks like the colour of the Milky Way? A goddess which is is connected with golden rays?

There is no Goddess connected with golden Rays in RigVeda. There are two luminaries, Savitr and Surya. Surya is the sun, but Savitr is an important God though not clearly defined. The Goddess associated with sun is Usha (dawn), has resplendent colors and not just golden. Probably it refers to Arora Borialis and lasted for continuous 30 days.

"Clearly hath she come nigh to me who decks the dark with richest hues:
O Morning, cancel it like debts."
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXVII. Night.

The female divine dog is associated with bringing back of the sun after the long night. She helped Indra to find the cows or the rays of the sun, just like Kerberos helped Herakles to find the cows hidden by the titan. When the sun comes up, there will be spring, and fodder for cows, as also milk.

"Orientalist Max Müller suggests that the word Sarama may mean "the runner", with the stem originating from the Sanskrit root sar ("to go"), but he is unable to account for the second part of the name, ama. Professor Monier-Williams translates Sarama as "the fleet one". The etymological treatise Nirukta by Yaska mentions that Sarama derives her name from her quick movement".

It is my firm conviction that .. like: Still if imagined as a woman, the center of the galaxy in the Star Constellation of Sagittarius, is located in the womb area of this female imagined figure, causing the mythical term of "The Cosmic Womb" of creation. This also indicates/confirms that the creation in our galaxy primarily takes place here and from here everything in our galaxy is formed and delivered out in the galactic surroundings.

I do not deny that.
When you have firm convictions, then you are moving away from science as well as meaning of myths which do not belong to your country or culture. Keep an open mind. There is a lot more to know. Convictions deny any further knowledge. It then becomes assertation, and imprudence.

 

[Native]

Doesn't seem to me they have much in common other than the ideas: (1) that natural forces of nature are "gods" and, (2) that things they didn't understand occurred via agency by these "gods". Probably later people who heard earlier stories incorporated ideas into their own stories.

Anyway, this seems to me to be a good framework for studying ancient myths and stories. The alternative is to assume these people got revealed knowledge and then try to explain the discrepancies between the various stories.

Hello dmap,
I think there are many commonalities when one ponders over how our ancestors described their (cosmological) world in symbols from their natural world.

My prime point is just that ancient and modern cultures lived/lives in the very same cosmological conditions and the prime question is how our ancestors described what they observed compared to the description of modern cosmology.

My approach is then to take examples from both areas and se if terms and texts from both areas can be interpreted into each others world picture in order to look for similarities and discrepancies and maybe then come to an understanding of the ancient and modern creation myths.

 

[Native]

HARVESTING IMAGINED STRAWMEN

Good grief.
Look, I have read enough ancient Egyptian literature, to know inconsistencies and contradictions exist in myths, especially in the genealogy of the Egyptian pantheon.
Astronomically, and I am talking science here, not myths.
Yes, the Milky Way is older than the Solar System.
But in Egyptian myths, the order of creation doesn’t have to match the science of physical cosmology, and the ordering of parent and child don’t have to be order of the
You putting words that I didn’t or write again.
Again, I have read enough myths, both creation and funerary myths, to know some traditions make Hathor as Re’s daughter, some traditions as his mother, and still others as his wife and consort.
You don’t need to explain that to me, because I already know the different variations. So all you are doing, is making and attacking strawman.
Again, I know that she was sky goddess and the Milky Way, but I also know as sun goddess. Again, you not telling me anything new, so more of your bloody strawman.
But if you think the sun god Re, cannot be father of sky goddess or goddess of the Milky Way, because that not how science work, you are bloody forgetting that Egyptian myths isn’t science.

I am NOT discussing what you have read or not.

I´m discussing how ancient myths are interpreted according to their full context and I am equally analytical/critical in both the ancient mythical and modern cosmological departments.

It is a known fact that scholars and laymen have huge problems with the family connection between Re/Ra and Hathor and this is without any doubts in me because philosophical scholars (and indeed physical scientists too) in several centuries have been focused on the Solar System and ignored that this is an integrated part of the Milky Way motion and formation.

Hathor is directly connected to the Milky Way! Subsequently and logically Hathor cannot be a "solar deity". This discrepancy derives from the (OK) interpretation of Re/Ra as being the Sun and as Re/Ra is closely connected, scholars then name Hathor sometimes as a "sun-goddess" and sometimes as a "Milky Way goddess".

This inconsistent problematic derives from scholars ignorance of the creation story and what this deals about. In the Egyptian creation story. a "fiery light" is created in the center where "the 4 pair of elementary conditions and forces comes together" and create this "fiery light", the first entity of light, called Amun-Ra and NOT just Re or Ra. Read more about Amun-Ra here - Where scholars of course continues the confusion of connecting Amun-Ra to the sun, when it logically should be the central Milky Way light in order to describe the family connections.

In fact Amun-Ra represent the first fiery light in the center of our Milky Way and this interpretation sets all family connection together with Hathor. Then it´s OK by me (and by the described family connection) that Re/Ra myth is connected to the Sun, as the Solar System is created from the center of the Milky Way, but Amun-Ra and Re/Ra represents each a different cosmological luminous object.

Contradictions and inconsistencies occurred, especially in lineage of the gods. If you are trying to match science and myth together, you are bound to bloody fail.
Is that all you do with you mighty comparative mythology studies, think of stupid New Age things to write about here? Think up straw man, attack it and think you have won the argument?

I´ve just solved the inconsistency of Re/Ra = Sun and Hathor = Milky Way, so you don´t have to worry over this anymore.

Apropos "strawmen", you can harvest you own "New Age" strawman. I don´t think you can call a several thousands old cultural story for "new". Your strawman here is more a mental ghost inside you from not taking ancient myths a real human knowledge of creation.

Ok, here is the inconsistencies of Greek myths here:

According to Hesiod, the Earth came to be from Chaos, which is indescribable, and from her, her son was born, Ouranos, the heaven or sky god, the sea Pontus.
Then from her mating with own son Ouranos, she became the mother of the Titans, which include the god of light and sun, Hyperion. And Hyperion was father of sun god Helios, moon goddess Selene and dawn goddess Eos.
So essentially Gaea (Earth) exist before the sky, Milky Way or universe (her son), and before the sun (her son/grandson (Hyperion) and her grandson/great-grandson (Helios)).

As you can see that doesn’t match up modern physical cosmology. The sun is older than the earth, but only by tens of millions of years older.
And you have brought up Norse myths, particularly regarding to Midgard (Earth) and Midgard Serpent.
But according to Snorri, the Earth, sky, and ocean were created from the dead body parts of the first frost giant, Ymir. Asgard (heavens) and other worlds were created after Midgard.
And according to Snorri, the sun goddess Sol and moon god were children of giantess Night and one of the little known Asgardian.
So the Norse have Earth before Sun, which is not consistent with science.

I´ll gladly elaborate more on these sentenses, but it really should´not be necessary if you include the Milky Way into your mentioned inconsistencies in these fragmented Stories of Creation.

Are you getting my points here, Native?
Who fathers who, or who mothers who, in any myths, don’t really matter in the real world, because they are all myths. What have they been teaching you in comparative myths?

Yes I´m getting your points Gnostic. You are reading about mythical family connections but you don´t know what they mean, "because they are all myths".

This just says it all: "myths are just mumbo jumbo and hearsayings" to you - unless you can use these poetically or psychologically.

Which is fine by me. But then keep away from judging serious debaters who can analyse and describe the myths into their original astronomical and cosmological meanings.

 

[Native]

Do we know where heaven is? If not, how can we know where 'netherworld' is? It is sure a dark, watery world., where the demons live. After Indra replaced him from the physical world, Varuna (Ourānos) took over as the king of 'netherworld'. It is certainly not the Southern hemisphere. Because if it was, then it would prove the existence of heaven in Northern hemisphere. We are not talking geography here.

To me "heaven" is the celestial area all around the Earth and on both hemispheres. No we are not talking geography as "locations ON the Earth", but what then do you mean about the location of the "Netherworld" or "Underworld" if this isn´t a geographical realm? And how do you you define mythical "demons"?

"It has been claimed to be related to the Sanskrit word 'sarvarā', used as an epithet of one of the dogs of Yama, from a Proto-Indo-European word *k̑érberos, meaning "spotted". Lincoln (1991), among others, critiques this etymology. Lincoln notes a similarity between Cerberus and the Norse mythological dog Garmr, relating both names to a Proto-Indo-European root *ger- "to growl" (perhaps with the suffixes -*m/*b and -*r). However, as Ogden observes, this analysis actually requires Kerberos and Garmr to be derived from two different Indo-European roots (*ker- and *gher- respectively), and so does not actually establish a relationship between the two names." Cerberus - Wikipedia

I think it is a fine description of the Milky Way "spotted by lights" on its dark background.

No, Native. Do not jump to conclusions. Sarama is not the mother Goddess. There is a lot more which I am going to explain, slowly and slowly, (as a hint) Milky Way as the celestial representation of the most beloved but now nearly extinct river of Aryans - Saraswati, also the Goddess of all learning. Also 'The Waters', or the God Apah of Vedas and the Zoroastrian Aban. "The word has many cognates in archaic European toponyms, e.g., Mess-apia, and perhaps also Avon, from Old Brythonic abona or Welsh afon (pronounced [ˈavɔn]), both meaning 'river'." - Ap (water) - Wikipedia

I´ll look forward to your "slowly and slowly" elaborations of the Milky Way myths. With the reference to the "river" interpretation in the last sentence, I still find it plausible to interpret Sarama to represent the "milky (way) river".

Can there be cultural overlapping of deities who are the same?

Thanks for the nice image of the Milky Way I have more here - The white Milky Way Contours

 

[gnostic]

Hathor is directly connected to the Milky Way! Subsequently and logically Hathor cannot be a "solar deity".

Ignorant sack.

If Hathor is not a solar deity too, then why do she often seen with sun disk between cow’s horns.

You have also claimed that Re isn’t a sun god, but as you falsely claim, the centre of the Milky Way. Again, you’re wrong, because he too have sun disk, surrounded by uraeus, the cobra goddess Wadjet.

 

[Native]

Thanks for your detailed efforts

There is no Goddess connected with golden Rays in RigVeda. There are two luminaries, Savitr and Surya. Surya is the sun, but Savitr is undefined, but an important God. The Goddess associated with sun is Usha (dawn), has resplendent colors and not just golden. Probably it refers to Arora Borialis and lasted for continuous 30 days.

LINK
The Vedas assert Sun (Surya) to be the creator of the material universe (Prakriti). In the layers of Vedic texts, Surya is one of the several trinities along with either Agni or Varuna and either Vayu or Indra, which are presented as an equivalent icon and aspect of the Hindu metaphysical concept called the Brahman.
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If one take the sun to be the creator of the Solar System, this isn´t directly false, but then what about the sun being a creator of the material universe in the ancient Vedic known world, which apparently includes the Milky Way at the least? That is: Does Surya really represent the Sun or another significant light in the Milky Way? I think the latter is the case.

LINK
"Savitr (he) has golden arms, and is broad-handed or beautiful-handed. He is also pleasant tongued or beautiful-tongued, and is once called iron-jawed. His eyes are golden as well. He is yellow-haired, an attribute shared with Agni and Indra. He dons on a tawny garb. He has a golden chariot with a golden axle, which is omni-form, just as he himself is capable of assuming all forms".

LINK
Ushas (she) is the most exalted goddess in the Rig Veda, but not as important or central as the three male Vedic deities Agni, Soma and Indra. She is on par with other major male Vedic deities. She is portrayed as a beautifully adorned young woman riding in a golden chariot or a hundred chariots, drawn by golden red horses or cows on her path across the sky, making way for the Vedic sun god Surya.
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Both Savitr and Ushas /he and she) are related to and described by golden attributes. The question is then how we interpret this golden aspect. Of course the shine of the sun can come in mind, but then again, we´ll have troubles of describing the sun transported in the day Sky by golden horses and a golden chariot etc. An imagery and scenario which cannot be seen on a daytime when the sun is shining.

I take the Vedic myths as really good scientific astronomical and cosmological descriptions, so I´m again going for another astronomical interpretation here but the sun.

The female divine dog is associated with bringing back of the sun after the long night. She helped Indra to find the cows or the rays of the sun, just like Kerberos helped Herakles to find the cows hidden by the titan. When the sun comes up, there will be spring, and fodder for cows, as also milk.

Since this deals with astronomical issues, which part does the "titan" represent in your mind?

Me:

It is my firm conviction that the Mother Goddess resides on the southern hemisphere (The Mytho-Cosmological "Underwold") where "she" resembles the Milky Way contours.
When looking at the contours of the Milky Way, this figure is seemingly revolving around the southern celestial pole axis because of the Earth rotation. If/when imagined as a great woman in the Sky, "she" walks/goes/runs around the pole.
Still if imagined as a woman, the center of the galaxy in the Star Constellation of Sagittarius, is located in the womb area of this female imagined figure, causing the mythical term of "The Cosmic Womb" of creation. This also indicates/confirms that the creation in our galaxy primarily takes place here and from here everything in our galaxy is formed and delivered out in the galactic surroundings.

To which you replied:

I do not deny that.
When you have firm convictions, then you are moving away from science as well as meaning of myths which do not belong to your country or culture. Keep an open mind. There is a lot more to know. Convictions deny any further knowledge. It then becomes assertation, and imprudence.

You agree in this "my firm conviction", but then you suggest that I´m "moving away from science as well as meaning of myths". Well never mind. Maybe you are generally convinced/convicted otherwise

 

[Native]

???

Ignorant sack.

Are you commenting on your own mythical restrictions here?

If Hathor is not a solar deity too, then why do she often seen with sun disk between cow’s horns.

Because some ignorant scholars have no clues of the mythical and cosmological extend of the myths. That´s why!

Because Hathor and the Cow both resembles the Milky Way in different cultural periods, remember? Now you can yourself guess which symbol of light she holds between the cow horns.