Ancient flood stories from many parts of the world

[gnostic]

I further suppose your lengthy denial is fueled by a lack of faith
rather than a knowing of earth history.

No, it's fueled by the lack of (scientific and testable) physical evidences.

If the global flood had occurred, then the physical evidences would be spread every single lands and continents, at exactly the same time as the supposed time of the Noah's Flood.

It would have also resulted in break in culture and civilization. How do you explain that there are no break in cultures with the Egyptian and the Sumerian-Akkadian civilizations?

Ham's son Egypt was supposed to be eponymous figure of the Egyptians, and yet the Egyptian culture hasn't changed at all in the 3rd millennium BCE. The writings (both hieroglyphs and hieratic) and their styles in art haven't changed; they should have been completely different.

And you can't put so many animals and people in confine space, with windows closed, for 40 nights and 40 days, without most of them dying of asphyxiation, especially with the Ark floating above the highest mountain.

And they disembarked near the peak of Mount Ararat, I would assume. Well, most animals are not equipped to survive in such attitude. And then there is long trek from Mount Ararat. Small animals can't reach from there to where they are now, without many of them dying out.

What about Australia?

The marsupials have lived in the Australian continent, even longer than the oldest human inhabitants there.

How did the marsupials reached the Ark, before they embarked? And how did all the marsupials reach Australia, without leaving in trace in the Asian continent? Surely some of these marsupials died and left their remains somewhere in Middle East, Central Asia or Southeast Asia? Were they magical transported to Australia?

Noah's Flood leave more questions than they answer. The Biblical Flood defies reality, rationality, when taken literally.

 

[Simurgh]

One other thing worth remembering might be that historically, ancient communities did settle near rivers and other bodies of water since life near sources of water were by far easier than where there was little or none. We still like to settle in flood plains and near large rivers and on shorelines due to the ease with which transportation of goods, military and ideas can be dispersed.

At some point in (pre-)history, a flood will have happened that decimated the population, reshaped the environment, and caused great destruction. So yes, there are many epic flood stories floating around as it were. Furthermore, people who never actually experienced a flood of such proportions may very well have a flood myth in their repertoire from the days that their ancestors heard about one and then transmitted same.

None of this means that some god flooded an area, it merely means that a flood occurred. Those who want to belief the global flood thing will see this as a vindication of their religious belief, the rest of us just views it as another instance of a natural disaster.

And yes, the people who wrote the stories of the bible were familiar with floods, especially since they came from a region where the two rivers, the Euphrates and the Tigris often changed beds after major flooding and whole city states were destroyed either to being flooded or the river bed moving miles away from said cities, leaving destruction and sometimes drought in their wake.

 

[fallingblood]

One other thing worth remembering might be that historically, ancient communities did settle near rivers and other bodies of water since life near sources of water were by far easier than where there was little or none. We still like to settle in flood plains and near large rivers and on shorelines due to the ease with which transportation of goods, military and ideas can be dispersed.

At some point in (pre-)history, a flood will have happened that decimated the population, reshaped the environment, and caused great destruction. So yes, there are many epic flood stories floating around as it were. Furthermore, people who never actually experienced a flood of such proportions may very well have a flood myth in their repertoire from the days that their ancestors heard about one and then transmitted same.

None of this means that some god flooded an area, it merely means that a flood occurred. Those who want to belief the global flood thing will see this as a vindication of their religious belief, the rest of us just views it as another instance of a natural disaster.

And yes, the people who wrote the stories of the bible were familiar with floods, especially since they came from a region where the two rivers, the Euphrates and the Tigris often changed beds after major flooding and whole city states were destroyed either to being flooded or the river bed moving miles away from said cities, leaving destruction and sometimes drought in their wake.

Although I do agree with much of what you said, i would like to just point out an error. While the OT does speak of an early time in the Mesopotamian area, by the time the Bible was actually written, the writers were in Canaan. Where they settled, flooding would have been quite rare.

Flood stories often were actually created in areas where there were not large scale floods, or where flooding was quite rare. Flood stories actually have very little to do with the flooding, but instead, are mythological stories that are trying to portray a truth. Much of it has to do with a recreation or a wiping away of the previous ways.

 

[Skwim]

THE MATH OF THE BIG FLOOD

[youtube]5svTzxVa-xQ[/youtube]

​

AND
THE PLAUSIBILITY OF THE ARK

"Noah's Ark was a great rectangular box of gopherwood, or perhaps some combination of other woods colloquially referred to as gopherwood. Its dimensions are given as 137 meters long, 23 meters wide, and 14 meters high. This is very, very big; it would have been the longest wooden ship ever built. These dimensions rank it as one of history's greatest engineering achievements; but they also mark the start of our sea trials, our test of whether or not it's possible for this ship to have ever sailed, or indeed, been built at all.

Would it have been possible to find enough material to build Noah's Ark? When another early supership was built, the Great Michael (completed in Scotland in 1511) it was said to have consumed "all the woods of Fife". Fife was a county in Scotland famous for its shipbuilding. The Great Michael's timber had to be purchased and imported not only from other parts of Scotland, but also from France, the Baltic Sea, and from a large number of cargo ships from Norway. Yet at 73 meters, she was only about half the length of Noah's Ark. Clearly a ship twice the length of the Great Michael, and larger in all other dimensions, would have required many times as much timber. It's never been clearly stated exactly where Noah's Ark is said to have been built, but it would have been somewhere in Mesopotamia, probably along either the Tigris or Euphrates rivers. This area is now Iraq, which has never been known for its abundance of shipbuilding timber.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

But if the Ark did get built, it would be necessary to overcome its extraordinary fragility. If you pick up a toy Hot Wheels car, you can squeeze it as hard as you want but you can't break it. However, if you were a giant and reached down to pick up a normal passenger car, your fingers would crush it before creating sufficient friction to lift it. If you even lifted it by one corner, you would warp its structure noticeably. When we extend this to even larger vessels, their fragility is magnified.

Whether a wooden ship the size of Noah's Ark could be made seaworthy is in grave doubt. At 137 meters (450 feet), Noah's Ark would be the largest wooden vessel ever confirmed to have been built. In recorded history, some dozen or so wooden ships have been constructed over 90 meters; few have been successful. Even so, these wooden ships had a great advantage over Noah's Ark: their curved hull shapes. Stress loads are distributed much more efficiently over three dimensionally curved surfaces than they are over flat surfaces. But even with this advantage, real-world large wooden ships have had severe problems. The sailing ships the 100 meter Wyoming (sunk in 1924) and 99 meter Santiago (sunk in 1918) were so large that they flexed in the water, opening up seams in the hull and leaking. The 102 meter British warships HMS Orlando and HMS Mersey had such bad structural problems that they were scrapped in 1871 and 1875 after only a few years in service. Most of the largest wooden ships were, like Noah's Ark, unpowered barges. Yet even those built in modern times, such as the 103 meter Pretoria in 1901, required substantial amounts of steel reinforcement; and even then needed steam-powered pumps to fight the constant flex-induced leaking.

The long and the short of it — no pun intended — is that there's no precedent for a wooden ship the size of Noah's Ark being seaworthy, and plenty of naval engineering experience telling us that it wouldn't be expected to work. Even if pumps had been installed and all hands worked round the clock pumping, the Ark certainly would have leaked catastrophically, filled with water, and capsized."
source and MORE
​

 

[Dubio]

I hope someone can answer this question as I am debating someone. Was The Epic of Gilgamesh written before the biblical Noah's Ark story? Thanks.

 

[fallingblood]

I hope someone can answer this question as I am debating someone. Was The Epic of Gilgamesh written before the biblical Noah's Ark story? Thanks.

Yes it was. There have actually been fragments of the larger work, which this epic is found in, found in Palestine. But yes, it is older.

 

[outhouse]

One other thing worth remembering might be that historically, ancient communities did settle near rivers and other bodies of water since life near sources of water were by far easier than where there was little or none. We still like to settle in flood plains and near large rivers and on shorelines due to the ease with which transportation of goods, military and ideas can be dispersed.

At some point in (pre-)history, a flood will have happened that decimated the population, reshaped the environment, and caused great destruction. So yes, there are many epic flood stories floating around as it were. Furthermore, people who never actually experienced a flood of such proportions may very well have a flood myth in their repertoire from the days that their ancestors heard about one and then transmitted same.

None of this means that some god flooded an area, it merely means that a flood occurred. Those who want to belief the global flood thing will see this as a vindication of their religious belief, the rest of us just views it as another instance of a natural disaster.

And yes, the people who wrote the stories of the bible were familiar with floods, especially since they came from a region where the two rivers, the Euphrates and the Tigris often changed beds after major flooding and whole city states were destroyed either to being flooded or the river bed moving miles away from said cities, leaving destruction and sometimes drought in their wake.

In this case we actually have the river in question.

The attested flood of the Euphrates that overflowed in 2900 BC and a man found in the kings list Ziusudra, is said in mythology to have went down the river and landed and made a animal sacrifice. this is the oldest of the flood legends in the levant, and my opinion the origination of Noahs legend.

Your correct.

After the ice age as agriculture developed people moved next to rivers not knowing the 500 year flood cycles, and built in low areas. After the floods mythology began and did decribe such.

What we see here is a progression of a river flood into a global flood. Much of Noahs account matches Ziusudras account, word for word in places. There really is no doubt in my mind.

 

[outhouse]

Although I do agree with much of what you said, i would like to just point out an error. While the OT does speak of an early time in the Mesopotamian area, by the time the Bible was actually written, the writers were in Canaan. Where they settled, flooding would have been quite rare.

Dont you think when Israelites returned from the Babylonian exile, they could have brought back important aspects of this legend with them from the same geographic place where it happened?

We know these legends were not written start to finish, but rather collections that were compiled over centuries and then redacted more then once, you cant see how a Mesopotamian legend ended up in Israel? You know simular to Abrahams legend of originating in Mesopotamia?.

 

[Simurgh]

In this case we actually have the river in question.

The attested flood of the Euphrates that overflowed in 2900 BC and a man found in the kings list Ziusudra, is said in mythology to have went down the river and landed and made a animal sacrifice. this is the oldest of the flood legends in the levant, and my opinion the origination of Noahs legend.

Your correct.

After the ice age as agriculture developed people moved next to rivers not knowing the 500 year flood cycles, and built in low areas. After the floods mythology began and did decribe such.

What we see here is a progression of a river flood into a global flood. Much of Noahs account matches Ziusudras account, word for word in places. There really is no doubt in my mind.

Since the bible was written in the Levant, it stands to reason that it would deal with one of the foods in that area. The similarities of the various stories attests to the fact that the original account was copied and retained by those who eventually moved out of the area.

On a related note, even the Native Americans of the arrid Southwest have flood myths. And again, those too speak of the spirits wanting to wash the earth of humans who had become corrupted. Interesting cross-cultural mythological category.

 

[Desert Snake]

Flood stories often were actually created in areas where there were not large scale floods, or where flooding was quite rare. Flood stories actually have very little to do with the flooding, but instead, are mythological stories that are trying to portray a truth. Much of it has to do with a recreation or a wiping away of the previous ways.

I don't think the flood narrative is metaphorical, myths are often based on real events, whether one believes the details in the narrative is another thing.

 

[outhouse]

Since the bible was written in the Levant, it stands to reason that it would deal with one of the foods in that area. The similarities of the various stories attests to the fact that the original account was copied and retained by those who eventually moved out of the area.

On a related note, even the Native Americans of the arrid Southwest have flood myths. And again, those too speak of the spirits wanting to wash the earth of humans who had become corrupted. Interesting cross-cultural mythological category.

thankfully the Sumerians wrote quite a bit and recorded more thne we have for Israelites. We even have details of the storm. Supposedly a 6 day thunderstorm breached the already swollen Euphrates. Ziusudra loaded what animals he could on a barge and went down the river.

We see this mythology evolve.


As far as deserts go, some have the worst flooding of all due to flash floods.

And yes I love this part of history, its interesting and fun for me.

 

[Dubio]

Yes it was. There have actually been fragments of the larger work, which this epic is found in, found in Palestine. But yes, it is older.

Thanks, Fallingblood. I trust what you say.

 

[gnostic]

I hope someone can answer this question as I am debating someone. Was The Epic of Gilgamesh written before the biblical Noah's Ark story? Thanks.

The Gilgamesh legend is found in 5 extant Sumerian poems. I'm not sure they are dated to the late 3rd millennium BCE or very early 2nd millennium BCE. Either way, they predated the composition of Genesis by centuries. Mention of the Flood as well as the hero Ziusudra is found in the poem - Death of Gilgames. Other Sumerian poems about Gilgamesh are found here.

Then there are epic (of Gilgamesh) written in Old Babylonian period (1950 - 1530 BCE). The best preserved of this period, the tablets are kept in Pennsylvania and Yale. There are others fragments found in this period, like Nippur, Sippar, Ishchali and Tal Harmal.

The best preserved tablets of Gilgamesh were found in the Library of Nineveh (Assyria), which scholars today called it the Standard Version (7th or 6th century BCE). It contained the complete Tablet XI, which contained the Flood story. The name of the hero is Uta-napishti, instead of (Akkadian) Atrahasis or the original (Sumerian) Ziusudra; they are all the same person.

Fallingblood had already mentioned fragments of Gilgamesh have found in Palestine. They were found in Megiddo, and dated to the 14th century BCE. This predated Moses' supposed Exodus.

Then there are other fragments of Sumerian myths, which doesn't connect Gilgamesh to the Flood myth. Read this page The Flood Story, also known as Eridu Genesis, ETCSL (Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature).

An Akkadian epic of Atrahasis, has some similarities with the Eridu Genesis, but more complete version, was written in early 17th century BCE. The Flood hero is named Atrahasis instead of Ziusudra.

If you don't mind buying a couple of books, then I would recommend the following translations:

George, Andrew (translator),
The Epic Of Gilgamesh: A New Translation,
Penguin Classics, 1999

Dalley, Stephanie (translator),
Myths From Mesopotamia: Creation, The Flood, Gilgamesh and Others,
Oxford World's Classics, 2000 (repr.)
​

The 1st book also include those Sumerian poems of Gilgamesh that I've mentioned. While the 2nd book (by Dalley) has the Epic of Atrahasis.

I'd hope that these information would help.

 

[fallingblood]

Dont you think when Israelites returned from the Babylonian exile, they could have brought back important aspects of this legend with them from the same geographic place where it happened?

We know these legends were not written start to finish, but rather collections that were compiled over centuries and then redacted more then once, you cant see how a Mesopotamian legend ended up in Israel? You know simular to Abrahams legend of originating in Mesopotamia?.

There is a problem with thinking that the flood story was taken after the Babylonian exile. Primarily, it completely screws up the Documentary hypothesis. Really, if we take the idea that the flood story was brought back after the Babylonian exile, then one has to reconsider the Documentary hypothesis in general. Now granted, many do find a problem with this hypothesis anyway, but additional problems would be added.

The flood stories are apart of the older material. In fact, we have two separate accounts that have been combined, both stemming from the earliest sources. If we assume that these flood stories were adopted after the Babylonian exile, then one has to reconsider entirely the dating of the sources. In fact, the source hypothesis doesn't really make sense as it relies on the sources being written by different groups, and that can't be if the stories were borrowed after or during the Babylonian exile.

Instead, if we look at the archeological record, there have been fragments, dating quite far back, of the record in which the Epic of Gilgamesh was contained in. Now, as far as I remember, no manuscript of the Epic of Gilgamesh have been found, but based on the other manuscript evidence, it is very likely that this work was already in Palestine when the Hebrew nation was first forming, or early in it's formation.

The story was quite well spread, and it is most probable that by the time that the variations of Noah's flood was written, the Hebrews were settled in Canaan, where flooding was rare.

thankfully the Sumerians wrote quite a bit and recorded more thne we have for Israelites. We even have details of the storm. Supposedly a 6 day thunderstorm breached the already swollen Euphrates. Ziusudra loaded what animals he could on a barge and went down the river.

We see this mythology evolve.


As far as deserts go, some have the worst flooding of all due to flash floods.

And yes I love this part of history, its interesting and fun for me.

However, the story that the Sumerians recorded was also mythological. It was an Epic, and not meant to be taken as straight up history. The genre of history had not yet even been created.

 

[fallingblood]

I don't think the flood narrative is metaphorical, myths are often based on real events, whether one believes the details in the narrative is another thing.

Is there a reason you don't think the flood narrative is metaphorical?

I would agree that myths are often based on real events. For Noah's flood, it probably has some relevance to an ancient flood in Mesopotamia. However, the link is quite slim, and the connection probably was largely lost by the time the story was fully adopted and "canonized."

 

[Desert Snake]

Is there a reason you don't think the flood narrative is metaphorical?

I would agree that myths are often based on real events. For Noah's flood, it probably has some relevance to an ancient flood in Mesopotamia. However, the link is quite slim, and the connection probably was largely lost by the time the story was fully adopted and "canonized."

Mainly the importance of the narrative in the Bible, also the detail given to the ark, etc. That being said, sure it could be mostly what you described, we are dealing with a people who were moving around, and settling in Canaan probably influenced the stories.

Meaning, the details of an actual flood could have been obscured. influenced by other cultures.

 

[outhouse]

There is a problem with thinking that the flood story was taken after the Babylonian exile. Primarily, it completely screws up the Documentary hypothesis. Really, if we take the idea that the flood story was brought back after the Babylonian exile, then one has to reconsider the Documentary hypothesis in general. Now granted, many do find a problem with this hypothesis anyway, but additional problems would be added.

The flood stories are apart of the older material. In fact, we have two separate accounts that have been combined, both stemming from the earliest sources. If we assume that these flood stories were adopted after the Babylonian exile, then one has to reconsider entirely the dating of the sources. In fact, the source hypothesis doesn't really make sense as it relies on the sources being written by different groups, and that can't be if the stories were borrowed after or during the Babylonian exile.

Instead, if we look at the archeological record, there have been fragments, dating quite far back, of the record in which the Epic of Gilgamesh was contained in. Now, as far as I remember, no manuscript of the Epic of Gilgamesh have been found, but based on the other manuscript evidence, it is very likely that this work was already in Palestine when the Hebrew nation was first forming, or early in it's formation.

The story was quite well spread, and it is most probable that by the time that the variations of Noah's flood was written, the Hebrews were settled in Canaan, where flooding was rare.


However, the story that the Sumerians recorded was also mythological. It was an Epic, and not meant to be taken as straight up history. The genre of history had not yet even been created.

But these people were factually heavily influenced by Mesopotamians, no matter where they lived. I agree with Cannanite origins, but some of these early settlers had come from all over the levant, with only the majority of semetic people being from Cannanite, not all.

Multi cultural, its why we had such diverse deity worshipping going on before monotheism set in for good.

Not only multi cultural but these people went through many major cultural changes constantly in tehse early years.


The legend didnt originated from after the exile, but it was redacted, and different legends or collections, were factually compiled into its finished form. I think its safe to say you had possible 400 years of this legend evolving within Israelites into its current state. the path of which isnt perfectly clear. Which your reply sort of eludes to.

But this was never a Cannanite legend that was only redacted through the years into its form, its not the evidence we have left in scripture.
I wouldnt put it past them to know about, it just may not have played any importance to their polytheism.


And on a last note we see the same exact story evolving from a Sumerian river flood, into the Mesopotamian version, and a few different versions close, to the Israelite version. Words matching almost identical not just in a few places but many, from the first version to the last version know throughout the word today. Its hard to claim everyone used these word tracks, when there are only a few in the levant that match, and no where else, and from the first flood we have a real attested flood, and a man on a kings list known to be real kings.

 

[outhouse]

Is there a reason you don't think the flood narrative is metaphorical?

I would agree that myths are often based on real events. For Noah's flood, it probably has some relevance to an ancient flood in Mesopotamia. However, the link is quite slim, and the connection probably was largely lost by the time the story was fully adopted and "canonized."

I have to agree whole hearted.

Its funny we see two different major accounts compiled together, and the one with the farm animals instead of 2x2, does match the original version much more closely.

We can still see the influence, even if some is left into ones imagination.

 

[gnostic]

Dont you think when Israelites returned from the Babylonian exile, they could have brought back important aspects of this legend with them from the same geographic place where it happened?

We know these legends were not written start to finish, but rather collections that were compiled over centuries and then redacted more then once, you cant see how a Mesopotamian legend ended up in Israel? You know simular to Abrahams legend of originating in Mesopotamia?.

There is no doubt that the Israelites had inherited, borrowed or adapted many stories from Mesopotamia, but it need NOT NECESSARILY BE ALL AT THE BABYLONIAN EXILE.

sorry1: I just need to emphasize this point.)

The Mesopotamian culture, religion and myth had spread all the way to the Levant, including Palestine, as early as the mid-2nd millennium BCE, as well as all the way to the Hittite Empire in the northwest and Egypt in the southeast.

Tablets found in Egypt and the Hittite of the Gilgamesh's epic demonstrate the popularity of the Akkadian-Babylonian literature. Like I wrote early, there are fragments found in Megiddo, Palestine; the biggest fragment coincided with the narrative of Tablet VII (Death of Enkidu) of the Standard Version.

Due to the popularity of Mesopotamian legend in the Near East, they could have infiltrate the Palestine at any point time, since the 14th century BCE.

According to the Documentary Hypothesis, there are 2 versions of the Noah's Flood story had been redacted and edited into one (rather) inconsistent myth: J (c. mid-10th century BCE) and P (c. 500 BCE) sources.

So not the whole flood story come from the Babylonian Exile period.

I don't remember which parts were from which sources: the rain lasted for 40-day-and-40-night version or 150-day version. All I remember is that the part of the size for the construction of the Ark (Genesis 6) and God's covenant to Noah (not to send another flood to wipe out the Earth) come from Priestly source.

 

[Dubio]

The Gilgamesh legend is found in 5 extant Sumerian poems. I'm not sure they are dated to the late 3rd millennium BCE or very early 2nd millennium BCE. Either way, they predated the composition of Genesis by centuries. Mention of the Flood as well as the hero Ziusudra is found in the poem - Death of Gilgames. Other Sumerian poems about Gilgamesh are found here.

Then there are epic (of Gilgamesh) written in Old Babylonian period (1950 - 1530 BCE). The best preserved of this period, the tablets are kept in Pennsylvania and Yale. There are others fragments found in this period, like Nippur, Sippar, Ishchali and Tal Harmal.

The best preserved tablets of Gilgamesh were found in the Library of Nineveh (Assyria), which scholars today called it the Standard Version (7th or 6th century BCE). It contained the complete Tablet XI, which contained the Flood story. The name of the hero is Uta-napishti, instead of (Akkadian) Atrahasis or the original (Sumerian) Ziusudra; they are all the same person.

Fallingblood had already mentioned fragments of Gilgamesh have found in Palestine. They were found in Megiddo, and dated to the 14th century BCE. This predated Moses' supposed Exodus.

Then there are other fragments of Sumerian myths, which doesn't connect Gilgamesh to the Flood myth. Read this page The Flood Story, also known as Eridu Genesis, ETCSL (Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature).

An Akkadian epic of Atrahasis, has some similarities with the Eridu Genesis, but more complete version, was written in early 17th century BCE. The Flood hero is named Atrahasis instead of Ziusudra.

If you don't mind buying a couple of books, then I would recommend the following translations:

George, Andrew (translator),
The Epic Of Gilgamesh: A New Translation,
Penguin Classics, 1999

Dalley, Stephanie (translator),
Myths From Mesopotamia: Creation, The Flood, Gilgamesh and Others,
Oxford World's Classics, 2000 (repr.)
​

The 1st book also include those Sumerian poems of Gilgamesh that I've mentioned. While the 2nd book (by Dalley) has the Epic of Atrahasis.

I'd hope that these information would help.

Thanks for all this information, Gnostic. Very interesting.